Who owns the Apache trademark and name?
04-17-2009, 09:23 AM
#31
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Hi Comanche3six!
You should work in the banking world, your due diligence is perfect! That is me!
Dont read me wrong, I love Apache's all my boats are called Apache's even some of my companies in souvenir to the most memorable experience of my life. My frustration is these hulls have a vintage aspect which could be enhanced with new technology and still be what they are. If Apache are really good rough water boats it is also due to V's, most hulls now are much flatter without counting steps, the beam is also narrow like making the 47 hull a real knife in rough water. I rebuilt Apache Heritage in 2003, ran it a few times but we had such trouble with the headers falling apart that I had to abandon the high performance scene with it and turned my passion to Cat's.
I am still looking for a boat which can perform in the rough like an Apache. The first time I ran one was in 1991, a 47 in seas of 10-12 foot and it ran thru like a train, that's the day I decided to build Apache Heritage. Until this day I never sat in anything like it but I am still hopeful I will find a "new" hull which can do what an Apache does. I haven't seen any new one or ran against them to know, all the Apache are refits.
My refit didn't work out too well.
My most recent V is an Outerlimits 42 which I sold last week, it ran fast, did well in the rough but not my style of ride, the balance wasn't fantastic at high speeds.
I have heard amazing stories on Donzi 38 ZRC's, it's a little short for the rough but was told it's amazingly surprising rid in the rough.
You should work in the banking world, your due diligence is perfect! That is me!
Dont read me wrong, I love Apache's all my boats are called Apache's even some of my companies in souvenir to the most memorable experience of my life. My frustration is these hulls have a vintage aspect which could be enhanced with new technology and still be what they are. If Apache are really good rough water boats it is also due to V's, most hulls now are much flatter without counting steps, the beam is also narrow like making the 47 hull a real knife in rough water. I rebuilt Apache Heritage in 2003, ran it a few times but we had such trouble with the headers falling apart that I had to abandon the high performance scene with it and turned my passion to Cat's.
I am still looking for a boat which can perform in the rough like an Apache. The first time I ran one was in 1991, a 47 in seas of 10-12 foot and it ran thru like a train, that's the day I decided to build Apache Heritage. Until this day I never sat in anything like it but I am still hopeful I will find a "new" hull which can do what an Apache does. I haven't seen any new one or ran against them to know, all the Apache are refits.
My refit didn't work out too well.
My most recent V is an Outerlimits 42 which I sold last week, it ran fast, did well in the rough but not my style of ride, the balance wasn't fantastic at high speeds.
I have heard amazing stories on Donzi 38 ZRC's, it's a little short for the rough but was told it's amazingly surprising rid in the rough.
You could always look towards Pantera, they have a history of making rough water boats. Their 36 is quite nice, and they have those 41' "Apache" Thad Allen molds that are just begging to be used. Nevermind the great customer service and attention to detail from the family owned and run company.
Just a thought...
(I'm not trying to steer you away from Banana, I enjoy the products both companies make)
04-17-2009, 10:40 AM
#32
Platinum Member
Hi Comanche3six!
You should work in the banking world, your due diligence is perfect! That is me!
Dont read me wrong, I love Apache's all my boats are called Apache's even some of my companies in souvenir to the most memorable experience of my life. My frustration is these hulls have a vintage aspect which could be enhanced with new technology and still be what they are. If Apache are really good rough water boats it is also due to V's, most hulls now are much flatter without counting steps, the beam is also narrow like making the 47 hull a real knife in rough water. I rebuilt Apache Heritage in 2003, ran it a few times but we had such trouble with the headers falling apart that I had to abandon the high performance scene with it and turned my passion to Cat's.
I am still looking for a boat which can perform in the rough like an Apache. The first time I ran one was in 1991, a 47 in seas of 10-12 foot and it ran thru like a train, that's the day I decided to build Apache Heritage. Until this day I never sat in anything like it but I am still hopeful I will find a "new" hull which can do what an Apache does. I haven't seen any new one or ran against them to know, all the Apache are refits.
My refit didn't work out too well.
My most recent V is an Outerlimits 42 which I sold last week, it ran fast, did well in the rough but not my style of ride, the balance wasn't fantastic at high speeds.
I have heard amazing stories on Donzi 38 ZRC's, it's a little short for the rough but was told it's amazingly surprising rid in the rough.
You should work in the banking world, your due diligence is perfect! That is me!
Dont read me wrong, I love Apache's all my boats are called Apache's even some of my companies in souvenir to the most memorable experience of my life. My frustration is these hulls have a vintage aspect which could be enhanced with new technology and still be what they are. If Apache are really good rough water boats it is also due to V's, most hulls now are much flatter without counting steps, the beam is also narrow like making the 47 hull a real knife in rough water. I rebuilt Apache Heritage in 2003, ran it a few times but we had such trouble with the headers falling apart that I had to abandon the high performance scene with it and turned my passion to Cat's.
I am still looking for a boat which can perform in the rough like an Apache. The first time I ran one was in 1991, a 47 in seas of 10-12 foot and it ran thru like a train, that's the day I decided to build Apache Heritage. Until this day I never sat in anything like it but I am still hopeful I will find a "new" hull which can do what an Apache does. I haven't seen any new one or ran against them to know, all the Apache are refits.
My refit didn't work out too well.
My most recent V is an Outerlimits 42 which I sold last week, it ran fast, did well in the rough but not my style of ride, the balance wasn't fantastic at high speeds.
I have heard amazing stories on Donzi 38 ZRC's, it's a little short for the rough but was told it's amazingly surprising rid in the rough.
Mark McManus owns the Apache trademark and has a 42' and a 50' Apache mold. He has done a padded keel on the last new 50' Apache "Cold War" but never any twin step hulls. Many (myself included) feel he builds the strongest, safest, finest rough water powerboats in the industry. Maybe a call to him and explain what you are looking to do in a V bottom will be the best idea. Anyway, I wish you the best in your search.
Check Out the video section!
http://www.apachepowerboats.com/
Ed
Last edited by Comanche3Six; 04-17-2009 at 06:18 PM.
04-17-2009, 03:23 PM
#33
Gold Member
Omar welcome. Your frustration is shared by the builders and the old timers also.
A couple of things have happened in the last year that have made me reconsider the high performance world of today as compared to yesteryear.
Last year we, HORBA, put on the first open ocean race in over 20 years....a real blue water event, out of sight of land, from Miami to Bimini and back.....the entrants had no Apaches at all. Zero, no one entered the race.
Second item was a few weeks ago at the St Pete poker run, the wind had been blowing for days and the water was running pretty good....73 boats entered and 8 made the lunch stop. The others turned around at the bridge and went back to the docks. 3 deep Vees and the rest cats.
My opinion is that todays boats are capable of such high speeds, that that factor has become the only benchmark that is important to these guys.
The ability to handle a boat at speed in rough conditions doesn't equate anymore, they just want to say they have a fast boat that is capable of running, but they don't want to do the running.
As banana boat co, www.bananaboatco.com we could build the famous 41, as I have access to the Chief molds for the 42 footer. However, anyone that has been interested has always been concerned with the "How fast will it go?" rather than any of it's seakeeping abilities. Todays boaters are a different breed for sure.
As far as today's boats go....take a serious look at the Statement boat made in St Pete. Not only was it one of the boats that made the lunch stop, they were taking people out for rides durng lunch to show that rough water was no big deal...they had a boat and a skipper that could handle that. The boat does 128 MPH with full fuel load and 5 people on board.
A couple of things have happened in the last year that have made me reconsider the high performance world of today as compared to yesteryear.
Last year we, HORBA, put on the first open ocean race in over 20 years....a real blue water event, out of sight of land, from Miami to Bimini and back.....the entrants had no Apaches at all. Zero, no one entered the race.
Second item was a few weeks ago at the St Pete poker run, the wind had been blowing for days and the water was running pretty good....73 boats entered and 8 made the lunch stop. The others turned around at the bridge and went back to the docks. 3 deep Vees and the rest cats.
My opinion is that todays boats are capable of such high speeds, that that factor has become the only benchmark that is important to these guys.
The ability to handle a boat at speed in rough conditions doesn't equate anymore, they just want to say they have a fast boat that is capable of running, but they don't want to do the running.
As banana boat co, www.bananaboatco.com we could build the famous 41, as I have access to the Chief molds for the 42 footer. However, anyone that has been interested has always been concerned with the "How fast will it go?" rather than any of it's seakeeping abilities. Todays boaters are a different breed for sure.
As far as today's boats go....take a serious look at the Statement boat made in St Pete. Not only was it one of the boats that made the lunch stop, they were taking people out for rides durng lunch to show that rough water was no big deal...they had a boat and a skipper that could handle that. The boat does 128 MPH with full fuel load and 5 people on board.
Make no mistake, it's not just offshore boating that has this problem. It's been a problem for many years in everyday recreational boating. I remember many a ride in rough water with smaller deep vee boats from the 70's that many 25 footers today would deliver broken ribs in. My dad's friend when I was a kid had a 31' Bertram, which wouldn't spill a drink going over some pretty snotty waters.
Once boat builders found out that some of the designs from the early days of glass boats were overkill, they learned to cut them down a bit. Now people talk about hole shots and all that. When I was a kid......
04-19-2009, 03:40 PM
#35
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Well I have learned a good lesson with time, test and improve, its hard being the first guy to pop a boat from a mold. Mark does fantastic strong boats but I am sure you can build strong and light as well without getting too exotic on the bottom. You never know how many steps etc etc etc. Fountain builds nice bottoms but sorry for all fountain boaters, I still can't get used to the bow nose, its ugly and never got better. Maybe a 47 Apache cut down like the Heritage with light weight can be a good compromise so that you don't need the triple headache of running three powerplants.
04-19-2009, 06:25 PM
#36
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Apache1
I understand your concern completely. This is a great brand with a lot of history in racing and pleasure boating. And, it is shame that nothing has been done to improve the design. I'm not talking about adding steps to the bottom either. I'm sorry, but, the deck on the new McManus designs is Ugly. It may work for the Euro Crowd but, it doesn't work for me at all. I'm with you on a cut-down version similar to Apache Heritage.
I would love to see a 41 cut-down in a sit-down configuration with the same lay-up schedule as some of the lighter weight boats like Predator or Starchaser or Magnum Mark's which was a work boat. The lighter weight lay-ups have stood the test of time, as well, run well in more variety of conditions, and can run the higher speeds with smaller power. There is room to improve. The question is...is there a willingness to do it or just rest on your laurels?
I understand your concern completely. This is a great brand with a lot of history in racing and pleasure boating. And, it is shame that nothing has been done to improve the design. I'm not talking about adding steps to the bottom either. I'm sorry, but, the deck on the new McManus designs is Ugly. It may work for the Euro Crowd but, it doesn't work for me at all. I'm with you on a cut-down version similar to Apache Heritage.
I would love to see a 41 cut-down in a sit-down configuration with the same lay-up schedule as some of the lighter weight boats like Predator or Starchaser or Magnum Mark's which was a work boat. The lighter weight lay-ups have stood the test of time, as well, run well in more variety of conditions, and can run the higher speeds with smaller power. There is room to improve. The question is...is there a willingness to do it or just rest on your laurels?
04-19-2009, 07:07 PM
#37
Apache1
I understand your concern completely. This is a great brand with a lot of history in racing and pleasure boating. And, it is shame that nothing has been done to improve the design. I'm not talking about adding steps to the bottom either. I'm sorry, but, the deck on the new McManus designs is Ugly. It may work for the Euro Crowd but, it doesn't work for me at all. I'm with you on a cut-down version similar to Apache Heritage.
I would love to see a 41 cut-down in a sit-down configuration with the same lay-up schedule as some of the lighter weight boats like Predator or Starchaser or Magnum Mark's which was a work boat. The lighter weight lay-ups have stood the test of time, as well, run well in more variety of conditions, and can run the higher speeds with smaller power. There is room to improve. The question is...is there a willingness to do it or just rest on your laurels?
I understand your concern completely. This is a great brand with a lot of history in racing and pleasure boating. And, it is shame that nothing has been done to improve the design. I'm not talking about adding steps to the bottom either. I'm sorry, but, the deck on the new McManus designs is Ugly. It may work for the Euro Crowd but, it doesn't work for me at all. I'm with you on a cut-down version similar to Apache Heritage.
I would love to see a 41 cut-down in a sit-down configuration with the same lay-up schedule as some of the lighter weight boats like Predator or Starchaser or Magnum Mark's which was a work boat. The lighter weight lay-ups have stood the test of time, as well, run well in more variety of conditions, and can run the higher speeds with smaller power. There is room to improve. The question is...is there a willingness to do it or just rest on your laurels?
I disagree with your statement. You call the deck on the new McManus 50 ugly. And to you it may be, so you would not choose that deck design. You feel the need to insult another man's design tastes. Ok, you have accomplished that. I am sure you are fully aware that Mark McManus could build you any design deck that pleases you? Including, the original Apache design.
You want a lighter weight layup (but not to the point of sacrificing strength and safety) in a sit down configuration. I'm assuming with some new stringer and transom composites. Readily accomplished.
Your last comment intrigues me. Are you saying that you have talked to Mark McManus and he did not have a willingness to build you this 41 sit down Apache you desire? He was preoccupied with resting on his laurels?
Ed
Last edited by Comanche3Six; 04-19-2009 at 10:09 PM.
04-19-2009, 07:39 PM
#38
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Welcome to the board and I am very aware of all your accomplishments...But lets just agree to disagree until the day comes we can meet on the open Seas.
With that being said I will take a rain check on your offer to run against you until we can have a formidble course maybe to Bimini and back next year???????
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04-19-2009, 11:51 PM
#39
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Battlecry
I disagree with your statement. You call the deck on the new McManus 50 ugly. And to you it may be, so you would not choose that deck design. You feel the need to insult another man's design tastes. Ok, you have accomplished that. I am sure you are fully aware that Mark McManus could build you any design deck that pleases you? Including, the original Apache design.
You want a lighter weight layup (but not to the point of sacrificing strength and safety) in a sit down configuration. I'm assuming with some new stringer and transom composites. Readily accomplished.
Your last comment intrigues me. Are you saying that you have talked to Mark McManus and he did not have a willingness to build you this 41 sit down Apache you desire? He was preoccupied with resting on his laurels?
Ed
I disagree with your statement. You call the deck on the new McManus 50 ugly. And to you it may be, so you would not choose that deck design. You feel the need to insult another man's design tastes. Ok, you have accomplished that. I am sure you are fully aware that Mark McManus could build you any design deck that pleases you? Including, the original Apache design.
You want a lighter weight layup (but not to the point of sacrificing strength and safety) in a sit down configuration. I'm assuming with some new stringer and transom composites. Readily accomplished.
Your last comment intrigues me. Are you saying that you have talked to Mark McManus and he did not have a willingness to build you this 41 sit down Apache you desire? He was preoccupied with resting on his laurels?
Ed
I love Apache threads, they never fail to entertain. I also would have loved to see what Thad Allen would have done with the Apache name; it would have added another topic to debate and argue.
04-20-2009, 08:00 AM
#40
He is not the only one who thinks that the new 50 is ugly. Just curious, are you related to Mark in any way or a business partner? I always see you defending him in Apache threads that question the littlest thing he does or does not do. Not a bad thing, just curious about the devotion.
I love Apache threads, they never fail to entertain. I also would have loved to see what Thad Allen would have done with the Apache name; it would have added another topic to debate and argue.
I love Apache threads, they never fail to entertain. I also would have loved to see what Thad Allen would have done with the Apache name; it would have added another topic to debate and argue.
Let me satify your curiosity. I am not related to Mark nor am I a business partner. I appreciate his powerboats.
Apache Powerboats is a small, custom, offshore powerboat company that started with a pedigree second to none. Don Aronow designed 41 rough water hull. Mark McManus built the boats, Bobby Moore rigged them and Keith Eickert powered them. Let's not forget Mercury Racing's part with their speedmaster drives. Ben Kramer, Bob Saccenti, Tom Evans had a racing team that was superior in every way. A real true offshore rough water racing effort. Not like what is seen today where the powerboats will turn around and come back to port if it's "too rough" ....Well, the world spins a few rotations and tosses the dice out of the cup.....what happens? Don Aronow is shot dead, Ben Kramer is imprisoned for life, Bob Saccenti has other powerboat company ventures, and Mark McManus is awarded Apache Powerboats.
Mark refurbishes and upgrades the older Apache Powerboats, he also builds new Apache Powerboats. I know you don't like the looks of the 50' but that's ok, because the man that had it built does. Maybe your tastes are more traditional and inline with Spirit of Apache, go to the video section on the Apache website and check out the custom features. It is way over the top! Mark can tailor the Apache to whatever the customer desires. That is what he does and who he is, a "Master Offshore Powerboat Builder"
Thad Allen was a drug addict, liar and screwball with a lot of money. No offshore powerboat contributions at all. Where is he now? Who cares?
Ed
Last edited by Comanche3Six; 04-20-2009 at 11:02 AM.
