View Full Version : X Power Drive .... X-Power Drive ....XPowerdrive



offshorexcursion
02-03-2012, 05:06 PM
So we stop derailing every other thread.

Here is what I have found, correct me if I am wrong....

www.xpowerdrive.com

We all like the drive, but none of us know how good it works, If its worth the money, and what boats even have them installed!

I have talked to Bill (bauberlen on OSO?) on the phone and seems like a great guy. Customer service seems on par with Rik at Arneson, and John at B-Max.:drink:

Price is around 35-40k EACH!:eekdrop:

KAP on here tried them and has "no comment"!:eek:

Bill, owner of X-Power personal boat?
http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/spectre/265777-x-power-32-spectre.html

X-Power Stainless Gimbal Ring
http://www.offshoreonly.com/classifieds/stainless_bravo_gimbal_ring_lifetime_warranty-o43277-en.html

X-Power "Jack Plate" style HD Transom Assembly?
http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/drives-lower-units/268755-has-anybody-broke-outer-transom-plate-2.html

Old Threads that come up under search

http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/skater/240482-xpower-drive-report.html
http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/drives-lower-units/192198-anyone-heard-these-drives.html
http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/general-boating-discussion/241815-who-runs-xpower-drive.html
http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/general-boating-discussion/191842-x-power-drive-goes-market.html
http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/skater/199130-new-30-ls7-finally-paint-booth.html

I have only seem them once in person on this Skater. Owner claims he loves the drives.

http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n576/offshoreexcursion/075.jpg
http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n576/offshoreexcursion/074.jpg

offshorexcursion
02-03-2012, 05:09 PM
What really got my interest..again...was this Cig mentioned in another thread....

http://www.offshoreonly.com/classifieds/cigarete_38_twin_step-o43448-en.html

My question is, What speeds do other Cigs run with similar HP and other drives. This would give us a good idea of the speed increase with this drive???? Only Prob we have is verifying the actual HP of this boat since the engines are not stock.

SkiDoc
02-04-2012, 06:22 AM
Might want to talk to Tres Martin, I know he told me he has some experience with them.

Philm
02-04-2012, 07:25 AM
Who cares. They are $35k EACH! For just the drive. Hopefully they give you a T shirt or something with that ass raping.

I think they are a fantastic design, and appear to work great. Bauberlen has them on his one Spectre that is running over 170mph, so they must hold the power. But you can buy and break alot of XR's for that price. For the normal boater, the price is insane.

A.O. Razor
02-04-2012, 08:40 AM
Who cares. They are $35k EACH! For just the drive. Hopefully they give you a T shirt or something with that ass raping.

I think they are a fantastic design, and appear to work great. Bauberlen has them on his one Spectre that is running over 170mph, so they must hold the power. But you can buy and break alot of XR's for that price. For the normal boater, the price is insane.


For that price, just put ASD#8-6s on it. I'll bet they take less power to spin than the X-Power and they are rated for 1500 ft.lbs. How much do the X-Power wheigh? The 1000 ft.lbs rated Ilmor Indy is about 35k list price, and probably cheaper when the deal is made. For those running less power, there is the proven ASD#7M with an 850 ft.lbs rating. I guess what I'm saying is, there is imo no need for the X-Power. About the many XR parts you can buy, yes that is true, but with the XR and the other Bravo style drives, you won't get the added speed and efficiency of a surface drive.

Raylar
02-04-2012, 10:50 AM
Just my JMO here:

Study the Market then Develop!

When you are developing new products for the marine performance boating industry in TODAY'S economy you have to be careful in the concept stage to analyse your market especially from a marketable and accepted pricing model.
If you don't you tend to end up with products that can be great technical and engineered products and work well but are end user priced to high above their available market demographics. This is what I think happens to nice products like this drive and maybe that LS7 outboard premiered last year as the end all be all high powered outboard.
Merc's Quad cam 1350-1100 engines and drives seem very high priced but they are catering to a very small sector of the performance boating community who can afford the expenditure and wants the extreme performance results they supply.
In the drive market you must look at other products in the market like the Indy drive, Merc NXT, Merc 6,7&8 drives, IMCO SCX, etc. before you develop and release products like this and you see the price point of these drives versus what they supply to the market misses the mark.
Its all marketing 101 that becomes the history of such products.

Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar

Boatlesss
02-04-2012, 02:01 PM
so lets do some math. 35 for the outdrive, hd transom assembly another 8500, spacers - 500, standoff box - 2200, inner transom assembly - 500 47+K

wrinkleface
02-04-2012, 03:47 PM
Jimkidd (sp) on here has them!!!

offshorexcursion
02-04-2012, 06:01 PM
Just my JMO here:

Study the Market then Develop!

When you are developing new products for the marine performance boating industry in TODAY'S economy you have to be careful in the concept stage to analyse your market especially from a marketable and accepted pricing model.
If you don't you tend to end up with products that can be great technical and engineered products and work well but are end user priced to high above their available market demographics. This is what I think happens to nice products like this drive and maybe that LS7 outboard premiered last year as the end all be all high powered outboard.
Merc's Quad cam 1350-1100 engines and drives seem very high priced but they are catering to a very small sector of the performance boating community who can afford the expenditure and wants the extreme performance results they supply.
In the drive market you must look at other products in the market like the Indy drive, Merc NXT, Merc 6,7&8 drives, IMCO SCX, etc. before you develop and release products like this and you see the price point of these drives versus what they supply to the market misses the mark.
Its all marketing 101 that becomes the history of such products.

Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar

You hit the nail on the head!

So what does X-Power do now?? Just enjoy the drives for his own personal use like he currently is!

Partner up with Sterling, or Teague and package them with engines?

Sell them at a lower price just to get them out there?

Give up?

I know you might not have the answer or care to share. But just in general, what now?

GPM
02-04-2012, 06:21 PM
I think he could flood the market if the price was reasonable, make his money on quantity.

offshorexcursion
02-04-2012, 06:41 PM
What really got my interest..again...was this Cig mentioned in another thread....

http://www.offshoreonly.com/classifieds/cigarete_38_twin_step-o43448-en.html

My question is, What speeds do other Cigs run with similar HP and other drives. This would give us a good idea of the speed increase with this drive???? Only Prob we have is verifying the actual HP of this boat since the engines are not stock.

Still trying to find a good comparison to this Cig. One with bravos and 750-800 hp

Mitch has a sweet 2001 38 with similiar horsepower N/A motors and #6 Drives. Awesome boat! I personally have been in Mitch's boat at 97-100.

TCBoss302
02-05-2012, 10:18 AM
I think he could flood the market if the price was reasonable, make his money on quantity.

I sure wish he would go this route!

dkwestern
02-05-2012, 12:20 PM
Still trying to find a good comparison to this Cig. One with bravos and 750-800 hp

Mitch has a sweet 2001 38 with similiar horsepower N/A motors and #6 Drives. Awesome boat! I personally have been in Mitch's boat at 97-100.

Out of Control has Zul 700+ and some kind of bravo. Check lipships site, 2003 38. runs over 100 mph.

Tres
02-05-2012, 07:13 PM
I have 2 of them on a Spectre with tw 800s they work just fantastic. I have looked after them several times no problems work as they should, Its faster than the sister boat with Bravos. Its cheaper than #6 conversion. I only worry about helmet carrying the weight. Real dry sump.

bauberlen
02-12-2012, 08:04 PM
Hello All,
I totally understand all of what you said, and I in part agree except for the fact that I did the entire project from start to finish. Here is what happened on route to designing and building a true 3 stage dry-sump outdrive, that is by far the lightest outdrive able to handle 1600 hp.
Food for thought a number six drive assembly weighs 645lbs and on our dyno consumes almost 90 hp to turn it 7000 rpm. The Bravo drive consumes 44 hp @ 7000 rpm and weighs in at under 65lbs. The X Power Drive consumes 11.5 hp at 7000rpm, and we have had versions that consumed 9.5 hp at 7000rpm but have now settled on the 11.5 hp at 7000 rpm version. It weighs in at 202 lbs. The drive has 254 parts inside which is far more than a bravo hence the increase in weight, also the parts are far larger to handle the increased power and torque. Okay now on to the price.

I set out to build a drive that would cost $15,000. that was a full 3 stage dry-sump version with built in oil tank, unlike a number six drive that is only dry-sumped upper and all the oil is in the lower unit, that could handle 1500+ hp that would directly bolt on to a bravo gimbal assembly with no modification, that would be faster than any other drive on the market. Quickly I noticed that the quality of the parts that would be required to do the job cost far more than what currently exists in the industry. Gears would need to be manufactured by companies that build gears and shafts for Formula 1 racing which is the highest technology standard to date. The materials used are not items off the shelf and required our own designs in very limited quantity. The next problem is I could only manage to produce gears and shafts in quantities of 30 due to the cost, and all the other parts in quantities of 50. If you were mercury marine you would produce in huge quantities and thus you would create ways to produce parts in very fast and economical ways which costs millions.

So now here is the problem. I am one guy that decided to fix a huge problem in the industry, and it took 4 solid years of my life and a huge investment to take it to market. Am I a business graduate from Yale? No, but I am a lover of boating and hated coming home on the back side of a rope. I have an engineering background, and access to top notch engineering, which included tons of CFD modeling and wind tunnel access for the lower unit's hydrodynamic design. Are they too expensive for the industry? At first glance it could appear that way, but if you ask our customers, they feel it was well worth the investment. Do I wish I could produce them cheaper? Yes! But not for the reason you would think. The actual reason would be, so that everyone would be able to enjoy boating as I have finally been able to with these drives. An amazing weekend, without the constant fear of blowing up your drive. If you try to analyze it or rationalize it, every trip you take boating could cost between $1,500 to $5,000 per weekend. if you break a drive and ruin a weekend it costs the price of the weekend as well as the drive. Do that just a few times and you have the X Power Drive. Not to mention your wife and friends giving you that look of disappointment on the long tow back. The drive is not a consumable item. When you are done with your current boat, you can put your old drives back on and take the X Power Drives to your next boat.

To date we have never had a customer ever pay for any repairs to their drive, Ever! it's the relationships we've made and the joy we have brought to people that is really amazing.

Could we ever compete with Mercury or Imco on total sales? Not a chance. Mercury is amazing, and Fred at Imco is a pioneer in the industry that knows his clients. I am a small niche company that set out to solve a problem, and did.

I wanted to let people know that it was impossible to
produce such a technically advanced product, without the cost involved.

I felt compleled to provide this information to answer these questions that are out there in the hope that with this understanding, people will see how this came about and why they are priced as they are.

Now to address the final issue which is the gimbal assembly. The bravo Hp gimbal is a weak link with the gimbal ring. We have seen them fail quite a few times. To address that we offer a stainless gimbal ring that we warranty for life. You don't hear that very often in the boating industry. Have we ever seen one fail since we came out with the ring? The answer is a solid NO. We have never seen a gimbal assembly with our stainless ring fail.

This is what it will take to get a drive.

If your boat has a bravo gimbal assembly already then this is the breakdown.
$35,000. What does that include
1) Complete drive with any drive X dimension spacer between
Zero and 5 inches.
2) Stainless gimbal ring assembly and all necessary parts to
install.
3) Mounting studs for drive.
4) Any engineering we could possibly offer night or day. I will
give you my personal home phone number and you can call
anytime.
5) Biggest warranty in the industry.
6) I will even trade out your spacer to a different size for free
twice. No other company would ever think of doing that,
considering a spacer kit is over $1000.

If you need a bravo Hp Gimbal assembly we can offer these for under $3,000 with purchase of the drive.

If you ever can use a drive or any assistance please feel free to call me anytime.

Best wishes,

Bill Auberlen
CEO X Power Drive
805-320-5631

A.O. Razor
02-13-2012, 06:08 AM
Hello All,
I totally understand all of what you said, and I in part agree except for the fact that I did the entire project from start to finish. Here is what happened on route to designing and building a true 3 stage dry-sump outdrive, that is by far the lightest outdrive able to handle 1600 hp.
Food for thought a number six drive assembly weighs 645lbs and on our dyno consumes almost 90 hp to turn it 7000 rpm. The Bravo drive consumes 44 hp @ 7000 rpm and weighs in at under 65lbs. The X Power Drive consumes 11.5 hp at 7000rpm, and we have had versions that consumed 9.5 hp at 7000rpm but have now settled on the 11.5 hp at 7000 rpm version. It weighs in at 202 lbs. The drive has 254 parts inside which is far more than a bravo hence the increase in weight, also the parts are far larger to handle the increased power and torque. Okay now on to the price.

I set out to build a drive that would cost $15,000. that was a full 3 stage dry-sump version with built in oil tank, unlike a number six drive that is only dry-sumped upper and all the oil is in the lower unit, that could handle 1500+ hp that would directly bolt on to a bravo gimbal assembly with no modification, that would be faster than any other drive on the market. Quickly I noticed that the quality of the parts that would be required to do the job cost far more than what currently exists in the industry. Gears would need to be manufactured by companies that build gears and shafts for Formula 1 racing which is the highest technology standard to date. The materials used are not items off the shelf and required our own designs in very limited quantity. The next problem is I could only manage to produce gears and shafts in quantities of 30 due to the cost, and all the other parts in quantities of 50. If you were mercury marine you would produce in huge quantities and thus you would create ways to produce parts in very fast and economical ways which costs millions.

So now here is the problem. I am one guy that decided to fix a huge problem in the industry, and it took 4 solid years of my life and a huge investment to take it to market. Am I a business graduate from Yale? No, but I am a lover of boating and hated coming home on the back side of a rope. I have an engineering background, and access to top notch engineering, which included tons of CFD modeling and wind tunnel access for the lower unit's hydrodynamic design. Are they too expensive for the industry? At first glance it could appear that way, but if you ask our customers, they feel it was well worth the investment. Do I wish I could produce them cheaper? Yes! But not for the reason you would think. The actual reason would be, so that everyone would be able to enjoy boating as I have finally been able to with these drives. An amazing weekend, without the constant fear of blowing up your drive. If you try to analyze it or rationalize it, every trip you take boating could cost between $1,500 to $5,000 per weekend. if you break a drive and ruin a weekend it costs the price of the weekend as well as the drive. Do that just a few times and you have the X Power Drive. Not to mention your wife and friends giving you that look of disappointment on the long tow back. The drive is not a consumable item. When you are done with your current boat, you can put your old drives back on and take the X Power Drives to your next boat.

To date we have never had a customer ever pay for any repairs to their drive, Ever! it's the relationships we've made and the joy we have brought to people that is really amazing.

Could we ever compete with Mercury or Imco on total sales? Not a chance. Mercury is amazing, and Fred at Imco is a pioneer in the industry that knows his clients. I am a small niche company that set out to solve a problem, and did.

I wanted to let people know that it was impossible to
produce such a technically advanced product, without the cost involved.

I felt compleled to provide this information to answer these questions that are out there in the hope that with this understanding, people will see how this came about and why they are priced as they are.

Now to address the final issue which is the gimbal assembly. The bravo Hp gimbal is a weak link with the gimbal ring. We have seen them fail quite a few times. To address that we offer a stainless gimbal ring that we warranty for life. You don't hear that very often in the boating industry. Have we ever seen one fail since we came out with the ring? The answer is a solid NO. We have never seen a gimbal assembly with our stainless ring fail.

This is what it will take to get a drive.

If your boat has a bravo gimbal assembly already then this is the breakdown.
$35,000. What does that include
1) Complete drive with any drive X dimension spacer between
Zero and 5 inches.
2) Stainless gimbal ring assembly and all necessary parts to
install.
3) Mounting studs for drive.
4) Any engineering we could possibly offer night or day. I will
give you my personal home phone number and you can call
anytime.
5) Biggest warranty in the industry.
6) I will even trade out your spacer to a different size for free
twice. No other company would ever think of doing that,
considering a spacer kit is over $1000.

If you need a bravo Hp Gimbal assembly we can offer these for under $3,000 with purchase of the drive.

If you ever can use a drive or any assistance please feel free to call me anytime.

Best wishes,

Bill Auberlen
CEO X Power Drive
805-320-5631

Interesting info. One thing I'm thinking about is the coupler. Now the drive itself is strong,, but are the shaft and coupler assembly strong enough when used with and without boxes? Who would run such a drive without a box? I mean one of the things that works well for the Indy, ASD, BPM ect. are the naturally build in setback. For maximum performance, you will in many cases need a 7" or 12" setback. Not saying it won't work, but if you are running 1600 hp, how is the bravo style coupler assembly adressed?

Does the X-P drive has a stock x-dim of 16.13/16" without spacers? If so, can you still spin an 18" prop diameter? How do you compare it in terms of hydrodynamic drag and efficiency to a true surface drive like the ASD and BPM drives?

bauberlen
02-13-2012, 09:08 AM
When you refer to the coupler, if sounds like you mean the drive shaft assembly itself. The u-joint assembly has been maintained in order to fit the bravo gimbal assembly. This was a big concern for us as in terms of outright numbers it didn't look as if it was robust enough. In the beginning we made our own very high tech (material wise) u-joint assemblies and tested them side by side with a standard assembly. In all the time we have never seen either fail. We have seen u-joint assemblies fail in the industry, but for different reasons, neglect, water, rust, etc, but if maintained properly they are amazingly strong. If you were talking about the coupler/spacer assembly to maintain the proper x dimension then that is a total non issue.

We have boats with and without boxes running the drive. The X power drive's propeller is already farther rearward to start with so it would already be like running a (don't quote me) 10 inch setback compared to a bravo, and a 4 inch further rearward than a number 6. We have done many boat conversions from bravo to X Power with no standoff boxes, and have always seen substantial speed gains. It is possible that had the customer installed stand off boxes we could have gained more.

You could spin a 19 in propeller in the shortest configuration. In terms of comparing to a surface style drive, the X Power is very much a surface style drive. We did months and months of CFD modeling on the lower unit in order to come up with a very efficient design for the lower unit, then we confirmed it in the wind tunnel. You should have seen some of the skeg designs, they were amazing and had far less drag, but in life we had to compromise mainly for stability on single engine designs. The early drives had a stainless removable skeg that you could try different designs, but was to costly.

Now comparing to bpm or asd I couldn't tell you as I didn't do a study on that. But we did use the number six, nxt, and imco lower units in our study and the information that you learn is pretty cool.

Here is a link to show our surface drive in action, and the efforts we go through to learn our product. Give it a minute to get going and you will see this is a run to 170mph

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuDiYtGAp3U

I hope this information helps.

TCBoss302
02-13-2012, 09:32 AM
When you refer to the coupler, if sounds like you mean the drive shaft assembly itself. The u-joint assembly has been maintained in order to fit the bravo gimbal assembly. This was a big concern for us as in terms of outright numbers it didn't look as if it was robust enough. In the beginning we made our own very high tech (material wise) u-joint assemblies and tested them side by side with a standard assembly. In all the time we have never seen either fail. We have seen u-joint assemblies fail in the industry, but for different reasons, neglect, water, rust, etc, but if maintained properly they are amazingly strong. If you were talking about the coupler/spacer assembly to maintain the proper x dimension then that is a total non issue.

We have boats with and without boxes running the drive. The X power drive's propeller is already farther rearward to start with so it would already be like running a (don't quote me) 10 inch setback compared to a bravo, and a 4 inch further rearward than a number 6. We have done many boat conversions from bravo to X Power with no standoff boxes, and have always seen substantial speed gains. It is possible that had the customer installed stand off boxes we could have gained more.

You could spin a 19 in propeller in the shortest configuration. In terms of comparing to a surface style drive, the X Power is very much a surface style drive. We did months and months of CFD modeling on the lower unit in order to come up with a very efficient design for the lower unit, then we confirmed it in the wind tunnel. You should have seen some of the skeg designs, they were amazing and had far less drag, but in life we had to compromise mainly for stability on single engine designs. The early drives had a stainless removable skeg that you could try different designs, but was to costly.

Now comparing to bpm or asd I couldn't tell you as I didn't do a study on that. But we did use the number six, nxt, and imco lower units in our study and the information that you learn is pretty cool.

Here is a link to show our surface drive in action, and the efforts we go through to learn our product. Give it a minute to get going and you will see this is a run to 170mph

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuDiYtGAp3U

I hope this information helps.

Approximately how many drives have you sold? No failures is great, but if you only have a dozen X-drives out there, I'm not sure people are going to buy into all you're saying, not unlike what we're seeing with the new -4 SCX drive, the jury is still out.

All you say is great, but until you offer these at a reasonable price, your product will only appeal to a VERY small population of boaters. If someone has the funds to spend 75K plus on drives, I'm sure they're not looking at bravo boats.

Have you ever thought about building the same drive with cost saving modifications that would allow the drive to be rated to, let's just say 1,000 HP, so that it would be affordable compared to the competition?

Philm
02-13-2012, 10:25 AM
Approximately how many drives have you sold? No failures is great, but if you only have a dozen X-drives out there, I'm not sure people are going to buy into all you're saying, not unlike what we're seeing with the new -4 SCX drive, the jury is still out.

All you say is great, but until you offer these at a reasonable price, your product will only appeal to a VERY small population of boaters. If someone has the funds to spend 75K plus on drives, I'm sure they're not looking at bravo boats.

Have you ever thought about building the same drive with cost saving modifications that would allow the drive to be rated to, let's just say 1,000 HP, so that it would be affordable compared to the competition?

Exactly right. In particular the last paragraph. Buying just one of these drives would be a crazy amount for me to spend on one drive. i didnt even spend that much on my truck.

Hell, if it could be built with a warranty but was only rated for 800hp, and was priced accordingly, I am sure it could be a competitor. Let's be honest, not many of us Bravo boaters are ever going to run over 1000hp.

Bill, I think you have a great product, that certainly meets your goals. I wish I could afford one to try out, because I feel that my hull is a perfect style for a surface drive in a single vee. You also probably have one of, if not THE fastest bravo style boat, and if you have truly had no drive failures to date with that kind of power, that is an accomplishment.

offshorexcursion
02-13-2012, 11:30 AM
Thanks for addressing this thread with some great knowledge and explanations. I think most of us understand where you are coming from but even so just can not fathom the price.

Everything you have taught us, your entire web site, videos, and the whole principle behind the X-power drive "sounds" perfect. BUT we need to see it in real world applications. Some proof. Head to head comparison.

My whole purpose of this thread was FIRST....can we prove how good the X-power drive is? Once we know how great it is THEN we can start to argue the price, or agree with it!:drink:

A.O. Razor
02-13-2012, 01:00 PM
When you refer to the coupler, if sounds like you mean the drive shaft assembly itself. The u-joint assembly has been maintained in order to fit the bravo gimbal assembly. This was a big concern for us as in terms of outright numbers it didn't look as if it was robust enough. In the beginning we made our own very high tech (material wise) u-joint assemblies and tested them side by side with a standard assembly. In all the time we have never seen either fail. We have seen u-joint assemblies fail in the industry, but for different reasons, neglect, water, rust, etc, but if maintained properly they are amazingly strong. If you were talking about the coupler/spacer assembly to maintain the proper x dimension then that is a total non issue.

We have boats with and without boxes running the drive. The X power drive's propeller is already farther rearward to start with so it would already be like running a (don't quote me) 10 inch setback compared to a bravo, and a 4 inch further rearward than a number 6. We have done many boat conversions from bravo to X Power with no standoff boxes, and have always seen substantial speed gains. It is possible that had the customer installed stand off boxes we could have gained more.

You could spin a 19 in propeller in the shortest configuration. In terms of comparing to a surface style drive, the X Power is very much a surface style drive. We did months and months of CFD modeling on the lower unit in order to come up with a very efficient design for the lower unit, then we confirmed it in the wind tunnel. You should have seen some of the skeg designs, they were amazing and had far less drag, but in life we had to compromise mainly for stability on single engine designs. The early drives had a stainless removable skeg that you could try different designs, but was to costly.

Now comparing to bpm or asd I couldn't tell you as I didn't do a study on that. But we did use the number six, nxt, and imco lower units in our study and the information that you learn is pretty cool.

Here is a link to show our surface drive in action, and the efforts we go through to learn our product. Give it a minute to get going and you will see this is a run to 170mph

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuDiYtGAp3U

I hope this information helps.

Thank you for the answer at taking your time. Very cool vid. The u-joint was actually not something I had thought about. What I meant was the coupler between the motor and driveshaft, sorry for the vague description on my part.


Thanks for addressing this thread with some great knowledge and explanations. I think most of us understand where you are coming from but even so just can not fathom the price.

Everything you have taught us, your entire web site, videos, and the whole principle behind the X-power drive "sounds" perfect. BUT we need to see it in real world applications. Some proof. Head to head comparison.

My whole purpose of this thread was FIRST....can we prove how good the X-power drive is? Once we know how great it is THEN we can start to argue the price, or agree with it!:drink:

X2

Here is my take on the price, I won't mention the SXC-4 here, since it's so new.
If the price is around 35k as explained, well things are looking pretty good. An Indy costs 36k listing and is rated for 1000hp. Look into the ASD#7M, it's less, but not that different. This is also about realism. Should one ask himself, whether or not he has the money to run 1000+ hp motors, if he can't afford a drive that is storng enough? It kinda becomes like car tuning is today. Everyone can make a car live with 800-1000 hp these days, but you need to adress chassis, tranny, brakes, aerodynamics ect. that is what makes it expensive. Big power motors have become cheaper and more reliable than ever, so more folks are building them. Some drives have become better and there are more choices than before, but they come at a price.

The problem with the Bravo stuff is the way it is adressed. Sould one consider upping their power less and have the speed increase be part of the drive change? IMO yes. What does many do? They build 800-1000+ hp motors at a pretty substantial price, and then pour 30k+ into two IMCO, BMax ect. drives that rob speed over an XR and still have issues.

So what about this then. Building a 600-800 hp motor at a lesser cost, spend some more on a drive that power for power alone will add 5-10 mph, sometimes more, over the XR not to mention the speed difference over BMax, SCX ect. Get the speed increas from running a surface drive like the X-P, ASD or Indy and not by pouring large amounts of money and power into the upgraded Bravos. Should there be a cheaper option for the 600-850 hp market, yes. Is there one? Yes, the ASD#6 kit rated for 750 ft.lbs and the bigger ASD#7M rated for 850 ft.lbs. Also worth to remember is the fact that the ASD #6 and #7 can be run with Bravo style props, so running an ASD does not mean spending 10000+k on props for the smaller boats, looking for better drives. All this being said, would an X-Power lite be nice and is there a need for one? Absolutely, especially considering the ease of installation. Not that the ASD kits are the worlds biggest nightmare in terms of the intall itself, but it's not a one day plug and play deal for sure. Going to a surface drive, no matter which one, will take time and dialing in. Long live prop test programs.
Just my o2

Jason3603
02-13-2012, 01:04 PM
My whole purpose of this thread was FIRST....can we prove how good the X-power drive is? Once we know how great it is THEN we can start to argue the price, or agree with it!:drink:

To your point this thread started out to be about comparisons. I personally was hoping to hear about for example; a cig running a mercury drive (doesn't matter wich one at this point) then a very similiar cig running an X-power with similiar HP if not exact. Then we could debate about the cost. I say this because if this drive gains my boat 25 mph by just bolting on the drive, then we are getting somewhere. I would be willing to bite the bullet on cost. Not saying these are realistic numbers. Just saying...

If we could get them type of gains with a drive then we are on par for what we expect to get out of a $75000 twin engine build package.

TCBoss302
02-13-2012, 01:19 PM
Thanks for addressing this thread with some great knowledge and explanations. I think most of us understand where you are coming from but even so just can not fathom the price.

Everything you have taught us, your entire web site, videos, and the whole principle behind the X-power drive "sounds" perfect. BUT we need to see it in real world applications. Some proof. Head to head comparison.

My whole purpose of this thread was FIRST....can we prove how good the X-power drive is? Once we know how great it is THEN we can start to argue the price, or agree with it!:drink:

Yep, right on! Bill needs to sell 4-5 of us X-drives at right around Imco prices and let us put them to work and be able to give some consumer feedback, not just "company promotion" information. I'll stick a check in the mail tomorrow!!!:evilb:

omerta one
02-13-2012, 07:32 PM
I'd b all over the ASD if it was closer to a plug and play, prop trials and the transom mods are tolerable, but moving he engines doesn't work for me. I want a drive that replaces the Bravo, runs #6 props, doesn't rob HP, doesn't weigh 4 times as much, is a plug and play, is reasonably priced (less than 50% of the current boats value), can handle 1,000 hp and doesn't break.

pqjack
02-14-2012, 01:23 AM
i'd b all over the asd if it was closer to a plug and play, prop trials and the transom mods are tolerable, but moving he engines doesn't work for me. I want a drive that replaces the bravo, runs #6 props, doesn't rob hp, doesn't weigh 4 times as much, is a plug and play, is reasonably priced (less than 50% of the current boats value), can handle 1,000 hp and doesn't break.

+1

hallj
02-16-2012, 10:16 AM
I'd b all over the ASD if it was closer to a plug and play, prop trials and the transom mods are tolerable, but moving he engines doesn't work for me. I want a drive that replaces the Bravo, runs #6 props, doesn't rob HP, doesn't weigh 4 times as much, is a plug and play, is reasonably priced (less than 50% of the current boats value), can handle 1,000 hp and doesn't break.

As you understand, how far do you think the engines need to be moved?

Jeff

bauberlen
02-16-2012, 10:37 PM
Interesting.
The X Power Drive directly replaces the bravo drive with no necessary modifications, it runs #6 props, it only takes 11.5 hp to turn the drive 7000rpm which is by far the least parasitic loss of any available drive today, it only weighs a bit more than the bravo I'm sort of embellishing this point but the bravo weighs something like 60+ lbs, and the X Power weighs 202 and the #6 weighs 645lbs. The X Power handles 1500 + hp with warranty, and the price is cheaper than Ilmore, and cheaper than then the number 6. 6 out of 7 is not bad.

articfriends
02-17-2012, 03:01 PM
Interesting.
The X Power Drive directly replaces the bravo drive with no necessary modifications, it runs #6 props, it only takes 11.5 hp to turn the drive 7000rpm which is by far the least parasitic loss of any available drive today, it only weighs a bit more than the bravo I'm sort of embellishing this point but the bravo weighs something like 60+ lbs, and the X Power weighs 202 and the #6 weighs 645lbs. The X Power handles 1500 + hp with warranty, and the price is cheaper than Ilmore, and cheaper than then the number 6. 6 out of 7 is not bad.

You have done almost the impossible, very interesting , unfortunately most of us can't afford the price. One thing I see you mention twice is that the Bravo drive weighs 60 or 65 lbs, I had one shippied once and packaged in cardboard it weighed 139lbs, just under the UPS limit so fwiw they actually are heavier than you are saying which makes yours pretty close in weight, Smitty

1 MAIDEN AMERICA
02-17-2012, 07:09 PM
Price, Performance, Reliability
Pick two

X = Performance and Reliability
Bravo = Price and Performance
Arneson = Performance and Reliability
Paddle = Price and Reliability

spectras only
02-18-2012, 12:05 PM
Price, Performance, Reliability
Pick two

Paddle = Price and Reliability

You'd have to buy quite a few slaves to paddle your Fountain to make it move so that throws the price equaiton out the window,hehe.


This drive looks good http://www3.telus.net/spectrasonly/sterndrive

SS930
02-20-2012, 09:32 AM
Food for thought a number six drive assembly weighs 645lbs and on our dyno consumes almost 90 hp to turn it 7000 rpm. The Bravo drive consumes 44 hp @ 7000 rpm and weighs in at under 65lbs. The X Power Drive consumes 11.5 hp at 7000rpm, and we have had versions that consumed 9.5 hp at 7000rpm but have now settled on the 11.5 hp at 7000 rpm version. It weighs in at 202 lbs. The drive has 254 parts inside which is far more than a bravo hence the increase in weight, also the parts are far larger to handle the increased power and torque. Okay now on to the price.

Bill Auberlen
CEO X Power Drive
805-320-5631

Bill,

I applaude your efforts, it would appear you have come up with a spectacular product. With that said, I have a couple of questions...

First, while your loss numbers are impresive, loss is also expenential with rpm and your ratings are at a staggering 7000rpm. Very few engines spin these numbers. Would you mind sharring the same data at say 6000 rpm, which is closer to what most users would see in real world usage? My guess is the delta on those losses drops significantly.

Second, you mention your drive has a lot more parts. While your testing has shown them to be very robust, more parts also means more things to go wrong in the future. Maybe not today or tomorrow, but maybe ten years from now. As you've stated, you have a lot of very expensive and custom parts in these drives. God forbid you get run over by a beer truck tomorrow, but in the event you do... where does that leave the customer 5 or 10 years from now when he needs one of those exotic parts??? I'm no huge fan of Merc, but at least I know I can get parts for a #6 20 years from now.


Again, fantastic work and very impressive product! :cool:

Tim Bostic
02-20-2012, 11:37 AM
Hey Bill,
Love the video.... It is very interesting to see that view of the drive, prop, and water.
I'll be designing a newer version of our Hyperdrive Offshore prop later this Spring for the #6 propshaft.
It will be available in 3, 4, & 5 blade configurations.
Thanks,
Tim Bostic

SINGLETGT
02-21-2012, 07:34 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuDiYtGAp3U

I hope this information helps.I have nothing to add but wow that was a cool video! Never knew a surface drive was really RIGHT on the surface!:lolhit:

omerta one
02-21-2012, 09:02 PM
As you understand, how far do you think the engines need to be moved?

Jeff

In a staggered setup rear engine forward one inch and potential vertical adjustment. in my case there's not much room to move to move forward and would likely require moving both; the port engine has no room to move forward or down without impacting bulkhead step.

smiklos@sunprint
02-22-2012, 06:45 AM
Bill is that the starboard drive in video?
Thanks
Steve

bauberlen
02-22-2012, 09:04 AM
Bill that starboard drive in video?
Thanks
Steve

Steve,
I believe it's the stbd. drive. The prop rotation looks like it's turning inboard, also you can see the water rising up from the tunnel which is on the right of the drive.

smiklos@sunprint
02-22-2012, 10:15 AM
Steve,
I believe it's the stbd. drive. The prop rotation looks like it's turning inboard, also you can see the water rising up from the tunnel which is on the right of the drive.

Thanks! Great camera view. I have 32 B Skater with Bravo's stock 525's on Imco SC drives. So far the drive wear has been good, but I know the drives are going to be my most common failure item.

Your drive is really a well thought out package and your auto endurance racing background I am sure played a role in it's design.

In the future I may be looking at your drive or Imco SCX. I have raced Bravo boats for years so I will see how long these last me.
Thanks
Steve