Poker run life vest question
02-11-2011, 03:07 PM
#32
BRAD SCHOENWALD
Platinum Member
Okay Rather than search for all the old threads I will start over here.
LIFELINE jackets are the only ones to WEAR. These are the only jackets designed and built to a performance standard rather than a prescriptive standard.
Even the U.S. Coast Guard acknowledges in writing 100 MPH rated PFD's do not provide impact protection. Go to Page six
http://www.uscgboating.org/assets/pdf/recalls/BSC80.pdf
You must also WEAR them. They are very comfortable and in many cases relieve some passenger’s mental anxiety. They do save lives at speed and prevent/reduce internal injury.
There are many cases where operators have been thrown from boats and LIFELINE is what made the difference. However you must be committed to wearing them and don’t think you can get away with the idea you will put it on when you need to.
One case I remember a 28 cat was running with two souls onboard and barrel rolled around 60 MPH. I arrived minutes after the roll. One person was sitting on the deck and the other was found a few days later. Two brand new lifelines in bags in the boat.
Brad
LIFELINE jackets are the only ones to WEAR. These are the only jackets designed and built to a performance standard rather than a prescriptive standard.
Even the U.S. Coast Guard acknowledges in writing 100 MPH rated PFD's do not provide impact protection. Go to Page six
http://www.uscgboating.org/assets/pdf/recalls/BSC80.pdf
You must also WEAR them. They are very comfortable and in many cases relieve some passenger’s mental anxiety. They do save lives at speed and prevent/reduce internal injury.
There are many cases where operators have been thrown from boats and LIFELINE is what made the difference. However you must be committed to wearing them and don’t think you can get away with the idea you will put it on when you need to.
One case I remember a 28 cat was running with two souls onboard and barrel rolled around 60 MPH. I arrived minutes after the roll. One person was sitting on the deck and the other was found a few days later. Two brand new lifelines in bags in the boat.
Brad
02-12-2011, 08:25 PM
#33
Registered
iTrader: (3)
Okay Rather than search for all the old threads I will start over here.
LIFELINE jackets are the only ones to WEAR. These are the only jackets designed and built to a performance standard rather than a prescriptive standard.
Even the U.S. Coast Guard acknowledges in writing 100 MPH rated PFD's do not provide impact protection. Go to Page six
http://www.uscgboating.org/assets/pdf/recalls/BSC80.pdf
You must also WEAR them. They are very comfortable and in many cases relieve some passenger’s mental anxiety. They do save lives at speed and prevent/reduce internal injury.
There are many cases where operators have been thrown from boats and LIFELINE is what made the difference. However you must be committed to wearing them and don’t think you can get away with the idea you will put it on when you need to.
One case I remember a 28 cat was running with two souls onboard and barrel rolled around 60 MPH. I arrived minutes after the roll. One person was sitting on the deck and the other was found a few days later. Two brand new lifelines in bags in the boat.
Brad
LIFELINE jackets are the only ones to WEAR. These are the only jackets designed and built to a performance standard rather than a prescriptive standard.
Even the U.S. Coast Guard acknowledges in writing 100 MPH rated PFD's do not provide impact protection. Go to Page six
http://www.uscgboating.org/assets/pdf/recalls/BSC80.pdf
You must also WEAR them. They are very comfortable and in many cases relieve some passenger’s mental anxiety. They do save lives at speed and prevent/reduce internal injury.
There are many cases where operators have been thrown from boats and LIFELINE is what made the difference. However you must be committed to wearing them and don’t think you can get away with the idea you will put it on when you need to.
One case I remember a 28 cat was running with two souls onboard and barrel rolled around 60 MPH. I arrived minutes after the roll. One person was sitting on the deck and the other was found a few days later. Two brand new lifelines in bags in the boat.
Brad
Last edited by formula 382 sr-1; 02-18-2011 at 03:02 PM.
02-18-2011, 07:01 AM
#34
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I just posted this on a similar thread elsewhere so will c&p here. This is my opinion only based on what I've experienced and seen happen. I know the trend is especially in bigger boats is to not wear jackets. I can only shake my head when I see it.
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When I'm running hard, 90+ anyway, I will wear a Lifeline or SRP. Reason: I ski raced many years and saw bad things happen. Some at well under that speed. The Lifeline 170 and race jackets have impact material inside to prevent foreign objects from entering your body through newly created orifices. Most human bodies have 9 orifices, all of which aren't designed to accept sharp metal objects at high speed. Extra orifices aren't necessary and usually create some issues. Also to blunt the force of impact on things like steering wheels dash boards, etc. I've seen steering wheels folded in half with men's chests from boats shutting off or spinning out. I've seen ribs broken from people just flying out of a seat into the side of the boat. All these feel much nicer with a lifeline on than without. If one is thrown from a boat at any speed and knocked unconscious one will likely sink without a life vest. Being unconscious and floating enables someone to snatch you and save your life. Being unconscious and sinking, not so much unless you are quite lucky. You don't necessarily die from the impact, but breathing water kills almost 100% of the time. Since my life has not included large quantities of luck I opt for the Lifeline.
Also when others are in any boat I drive and am going to haul ass they will wear a jacket (ski jackets not acceptable, they can come apart upon impact at these speeds) or we are not going out to run hard. First I value other's safety if an accident should occur, second I value the liability protection wearing one vs not wearing might afford in the aftermath should push come to shove.
I don't agree with the position that a large cat going 150+ eliminates the effectiveness of a jacket either. #1 you may easily be just thrown free and knocked unconscious. There is a low probability a properly fitted Lifeline will come off at impact speed with water. #2, they will save your life in many cases where impact would kill you without. I've seen dragboat guys exit open boats at high speed and live to race another day and even walk away under their own power. Without a Lifeline on the odds of living through a 150+ crash are slim to none.
So you have to ask yourself I guess. Is the the value of your life and that of your friends or family worth a 3-500 dollar investment? Do you care if you can dramatically increase your chance of survival in a water accident? Questions everyone I guess must come up with their own answers for.
If anyone would like my opinion on how your head will fare bouncing off the dash at 150+ without a helmet, feel free to ask.
I also believe the current trend is slowly moving towards requiring life jackets. Testing of this is currently in process at a couple lakes in CA. The more bodies LE and the USCG have to recover the more likely I feel this will eventually become a reality. I don't necessarily like mandates because it eliminates the freedom to do different things under different conditions. But I do think things are starting to drift in this direction.
That is just my opinion.
-----------
When I'm running hard, 90+ anyway, I will wear a Lifeline or SRP. Reason: I ski raced many years and saw bad things happen. Some at well under that speed. The Lifeline 170 and race jackets have impact material inside to prevent foreign objects from entering your body through newly created orifices. Most human bodies have 9 orifices, all of which aren't designed to accept sharp metal objects at high speed. Extra orifices aren't necessary and usually create some issues. Also to blunt the force of impact on things like steering wheels dash boards, etc. I've seen steering wheels folded in half with men's chests from boats shutting off or spinning out. I've seen ribs broken from people just flying out of a seat into the side of the boat. All these feel much nicer with a lifeline on than without. If one is thrown from a boat at any speed and knocked unconscious one will likely sink without a life vest. Being unconscious and floating enables someone to snatch you and save your life. Being unconscious and sinking, not so much unless you are quite lucky. You don't necessarily die from the impact, but breathing water kills almost 100% of the time. Since my life has not included large quantities of luck I opt for the Lifeline.
Also when others are in any boat I drive and am going to haul ass they will wear a jacket (ski jackets not acceptable, they can come apart upon impact at these speeds) or we are not going out to run hard. First I value other's safety if an accident should occur, second I value the liability protection wearing one vs not wearing might afford in the aftermath should push come to shove.
I don't agree with the position that a large cat going 150+ eliminates the effectiveness of a jacket either. #1 you may easily be just thrown free and knocked unconscious. There is a low probability a properly fitted Lifeline will come off at impact speed with water. #2, they will save your life in many cases where impact would kill you without. I've seen dragboat guys exit open boats at high speed and live to race another day and even walk away under their own power. Without a Lifeline on the odds of living through a 150+ crash are slim to none.
So you have to ask yourself I guess. Is the the value of your life and that of your friends or family worth a 3-500 dollar investment? Do you care if you can dramatically increase your chance of survival in a water accident? Questions everyone I guess must come up with their own answers for.
If anyone would like my opinion on how your head will fare bouncing off the dash at 150+ without a helmet, feel free to ask.
I also believe the current trend is slowly moving towards requiring life jackets. Testing of this is currently in process at a couple lakes in CA. The more bodies LE and the USCG have to recover the more likely I feel this will eventually become a reality. I don't necessarily like mandates because it eliminates the freedom to do different things under different conditions. But I do think things are starting to drift in this direction.
That is just my opinion.
Last edited by rexone; 02-18-2011 at 07:05 AM.
04-05-2011, 03:00 PM
#35
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One thing I find interesting is that only their racing jackets are Coast Guard Approved so while wearing one of their $375 jackets may get you respect from Johny law it won't prevent a ticket. While I won't say Life Line are overkill, they absolutely have their place, but to me they're for racing and not required for everyday pleasure boating even faster pleasure boating BTW if you're running 150 mph you're not pleasure boating you're racing just not in an event. For just about anyone else I think as long as you have A jacket on you're a huge step above 98% of boaters out there so forgive me if I don't have my friends (those are the only people who boat with me) meet with my attorney, issue them race suits, helmet's, HANS devices, and special life jackets with airbags at a briefing before each departure.
I'll admit that I'm as far from a mandatory safety first guy as you'll ever find (one of my favorite movie lines is "enough of that sissy talk"). That being said I'm also old and experienced enough to admit that in certain situations prudence does win out. My intention is to keep auto inflate vests in the boat and to actually wear them anytime we intend to run over 75-80 or if it's at all rough out, other than that IMHO we're pretty safe and will enjoy my day as boaters have for 100's of years. Oh and I don't always wear my seat belt either
For those that preach Life Line all day everyday how about all performance oriented boats should have full canopies, 5 point harnesses, and scuba, I mean where does the line get drawn? Should those vests have chutes or are those not necessary? All of those things provide irrefutable safety as well so why not require them?
I'll admit that I'm as far from a mandatory safety first guy as you'll ever find (one of my favorite movie lines is "enough of that sissy talk"). That being said I'm also old and experienced enough to admit that in certain situations prudence does win out. My intention is to keep auto inflate vests in the boat and to actually wear them anytime we intend to run over 75-80 or if it's at all rough out, other than that IMHO we're pretty safe and will enjoy my day as boaters have for 100's of years. Oh and I don't always wear my seat belt either
For those that preach Life Line all day everyday how about all performance oriented boats should have full canopies, 5 point harnesses, and scuba, I mean where does the line get drawn? Should those vests have chutes or are those not necessary? All of those things provide irrefutable safety as well so why not require them?
04-05-2011, 03:06 PM
#36
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Please don't take the above the wrong way it's just my opinion that while safety can always be argued for and it's VERY difficult to argue against I believe there are acceptable levels of safety and not everyone needs 14 airbags in their cars with roll cages , 5 point harnesses, and speed limiters set for 22 MPH
To each their own because no safety law or rule will work for every situation and will normally only be followed by the ones that followed it before it was a law anyway.
To each their own because no safety law or rule will work for every situation and will normally only be followed by the ones that followed it before it was a law anyway.
04-05-2011, 03:44 PM
#37
Registered
I too agree, anything is better than nothing...(even the kiddie inflatable arm bands are better if you where them) But some say we are preaching lifelines, this is not really accurate.
Many of us have taken the plunge and purchased the Lifelines, there is many reasons, most of which have been outlined, Kevlar protection, Neck support, flotation that keeps your head above water, comfort, style, Leg straps to keep them on and the list goes on.
It is the above list why Lifelines are a complete package for safety.
Let me put it this way: You can always buy a Bayliner, it floats, gets you to party cove, some models have a head, easily operating and cost substantially less than other boats... But from what I see on this forum,it would not be the first choice of boats to own...
When it came to my purchase, I took the "Upgraded" version, Its what made me feel safer, comfortable and we actually use them. It works for us, but hey.... You can always cruise with the crew in the Bayliner....
(For those on the Bayliner Race Team, this was not a true cut down of what you have or believe in, it was an analogy for everyone else!)
Many of us have taken the plunge and purchased the Lifelines, there is many reasons, most of which have been outlined, Kevlar protection, Neck support, flotation that keeps your head above water, comfort, style, Leg straps to keep them on and the list goes on.
It is the above list why Lifelines are a complete package for safety.
Let me put it this way: You can always buy a Bayliner, it floats, gets you to party cove, some models have a head, easily operating and cost substantially less than other boats... But from what I see on this forum,it would not be the first choice of boats to own...
When it came to my purchase, I took the "Upgraded" version, Its what made me feel safer, comfortable and we actually use them. It works for us, but hey.... You can always cruise with the crew in the Bayliner....
(For those on the Bayliner Race Team, this was not a true cut down of what you have or believe in, it was an analogy for everyone else!)
Last edited by bajaholic; 04-05-2011 at 03:46 PM.
04-05-2011, 05:18 PM
#38
Registered
Life preservers….
I grew up in a time where car seatbelts were optional (if you could find them in the seat). Life vests, always on the boat but coming from a working waterfront no one wore them. Then the seat belt law came to Maryland and after a few seatbelt tickets I started to ware them and now find myself reaching for the thing just going a block away.
Then I had kids. Even though they can swim like guppies they never get in the boat unless strapped in and then checked over by an adult. Me not so much.
When I go out it’s for hours and on a summer day in Maryland can easily reach a 100* Wrapped up in a stuffy L/P is not an option (for me). Then as I found myself boating a lot more by myself, my conscience would get the best of me and I would end up putting them on (well, if it got rough or going balls out). And I was cool with that until a local guy got thrown out of his boat and it went for miles before it crashed into a beach then burst into flames after the motors ran dry. That was good enough for me and I went out and got one of the better self and manual inflating l/p that I could find. That way I could attach a lanyard to it so that would never happen to my boat. It was the right thing to do and I could also live with the compromise. I’ve noticed sometimes I still had it on when I get to the house it’s that un-noticeable.
If I had to wear a full size again ……..lets just say I’m glad there’s inflatables.
The only draw back is you cant leave it in the boat. A couple weeks of wet spring mornings and you will find it exploded around your steering wheel like I did.
11-17-2011, 07:58 AM
#39
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One thing I find interesting is that only their racing jackets are Coast Guard Approved so while wearing one of their $375 jackets may get you respect from Johny law it won't prevent a ticket. While I won't say Life Line are overkill, they absolutely have their place, but to me they're for racing and not required for everyday pleasure boating even faster pleasure boating BTW if you're running 150 mph you're not pleasure boating you're racing just not in an event. For just about anyone else I think as long as you have A jacket on you're a huge step above 98% of boaters out there so forgive me if I don't have my friends (those are the only people who boat with me) meet with my attorney, issue them race suits, helmet's, HANS devices, and special life jackets with airbags at a briefing before each departure.
I'll admit that I'm as far from a mandatory safety first guy as you'll ever find (one of my favorite movie lines is "enough of that sissy talk"). That being said I'm also old and experienced enough to admit that in certain situations prudence does win out. My intention is to keep auto inflate vests in the boat and to actually wear them anytime we intend to run over 75-80 or if it's at all rough out, other than that IMHO we're pretty safe and will enjoy my day as boaters have for 100's of years. Oh and I don't always wear my seat belt either
For those that preach Life Line all day everyday how about all performance oriented boats should have full canopies, 5 point harnesses, and scuba, I mean where does the line get drawn? Should those vests have chutes or are those not necessary? All of those things provide irrefutable safety as well so why not require them?
I'll admit that I'm as far from a mandatory safety first guy as you'll ever find (one of my favorite movie lines is "enough of that sissy talk"). That being said I'm also old and experienced enough to admit that in certain situations prudence does win out. My intention is to keep auto inflate vests in the boat and to actually wear them anytime we intend to run over 75-80 or if it's at all rough out, other than that IMHO we're pretty safe and will enjoy my day as boaters have for 100's of years. Oh and I don't always wear my seat belt either
For those that preach Life Line all day everyday how about all performance oriented boats should have full canopies, 5 point harnesses, and scuba, I mean where does the line get drawn? Should those vests have chutes or are those not necessary? All of those things provide irrefutable safety as well so why not require them?
12-08-2011, 10:07 AM
#40
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What is the impact rating of the inflatables? I used to horse around with high speed water skiing, hit the water once doing over 70, the jacket I had on blew apart, fortunately I was in relatively shallow water and maintained consciousness. I found some performance PWC jackets that are impact rated to 100mph. My rule is before I get on plane all feet on the floor. and anything over 70 all wear jackets.
