restoring 20' cig.... NEED ur Thoughts!!! need info!!!
04-16-2010, 11:06 PM
#131
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I can give some one the # of a friend selling the black hawk for $2500 now that my plan has changed.... heck of a deal..
Last edited by tomuchstuff; 04-16-2010 at 11:30 PM.
04-17-2010, 11:24 PM
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to understand any thing you must start at the beginning,,,
"fact" copied from the arneson web site...
In 1980, Howard Arneson ordered an 18-foot Arena Craft and installed a prototype of his patented Arneson drive. The boat ran great. It handled well and reached a top speed of 78 mph with 280 horsepower. The Arneson drive was born.
there was no drop box at the time, there are photos of the test boat on the net.
there is a lot of info on the ez install of the drop box and the power savings of a velvet drive surface drive system but not a lot of talk about the power loss of running your system throw a second gear driven or chain driven system and even less dyno numbers floating about matching it too a smaller hp with a bravo,,, "I am not talking about top speed's in the water where the drive system is tested but HP at the shaft's " now most boater boat do not build boats and most builders do not use surface drives so the ez of selling a system that just bolt over your o/d hole and lines up to your engine makes it less scary.. and for guys braking zf gears looking for the beef, the world of 1000+ hp it all changes and the drop box make sens but were not talking about that kind of torque at all... 400 to 650hp gas torque range about the sweat spot hp #'s of boats winning races in the 1980's making arneson drives famous.
fact "in 1980 Arneson ordered a custom 38-foot Cougar Cat to race with his new drives. and only won 9 times & World Championships in Open Class in 1983 and 1984 b4 hp range changed and he built a bigger drive's..... but not a drop box?
here's the thing
the donzi 18 that is or was running an asd6 and drop box named after a cartoon mouse was posted to run in the hi 80's from what I have seen and is running a stroker sb 350 at 500hp and the first boat to run a asd 6 was an 18ft and ran 78 with 280 hp sb.... some things getting lost some where... if the numbers are right... 220 hp shuld give you more then 10mph... but swinging them gears or chain takes Hp and adds drag to the over all system... the large size of the drop box leads me to think it built strong and heavy they do not brake but there's got to be a lot more rotating mass then that of a bravo.... the inline style of gearing of the arneson may save a little hp but dose the rotating mass cancel it out when side by side with a bravo or a velt 1.5.1?
now in 1978 I think that the test boat ran a 72c with 1.5.1 gear or was it a 1.1 proped to take rpm from the motor only two real thing that were around in 1978, and at 280hp they were fine with a 1.5.1, but at 500hp you'll grind. un less you crio the reduction some say that a load of bs any way.... but then zf makes a gear that will take 650hp all day but what will the hp losses be? 40hp that of an un modded velt 72c or worse?
the fact is if you needed a drop box to run an asd-6 drive on a small boat there would be no arneson drives at all. as the test boat did not run one... and according to the arneson web site the test boat "handled well and reached a top speed of 78 mph with 280 horsepower." a very respectable # for any 20 cig and much better then any one running 280hp, in fact better then most with 450hp in there 20's...
I think I can get a drive in the engine room with a 350 sb as a jet drive fit.. but the bb will need a coustom stand off to fit a zf.... still have some reading to do.. and need to search out guys racing the systems b4 the drop box was around...
just by looking at all the boats in my yard running a surface drive there are 4, trying to get an idea how to rig this thing, they all seem to be mounted as low as can be on the transom and to be as level as can be to keep the center line of the prop level to the boat bottom.. but looks can kill...
In 1980, Howard Arneson ordered an 18-foot Arena Craft and installed a prototype of his patented Arneson drive. The boat ran great. It handled well and reached a top speed of 78 mph with 280 horsepower. The Arneson drive was born.
there was no drop box at the time, there are photos of the test boat on the net.
there is a lot of info on the ez install of the drop box and the power savings of a velvet drive surface drive system but not a lot of talk about the power loss of running your system throw a second gear driven or chain driven system and even less dyno numbers floating about matching it too a smaller hp with a bravo,,, "I am not talking about top speed's in the water where the drive system is tested but HP at the shaft's " now most boater boat do not build boats and most builders do not use surface drives so the ez of selling a system that just bolt over your o/d hole and lines up to your engine makes it less scary.. and for guys braking zf gears looking for the beef, the world of 1000+ hp it all changes and the drop box make sens but were not talking about that kind of torque at all... 400 to 650hp gas torque range about the sweat spot hp #'s of boats winning races in the 1980's making arneson drives famous.
fact "in 1980 Arneson ordered a custom 38-foot Cougar Cat to race with his new drives. and only won 9 times & World Championships in Open Class in 1983 and 1984 b4 hp range changed and he built a bigger drive's..... but not a drop box?
here's the thing
the donzi 18 that is or was running an asd6 and drop box named after a cartoon mouse was posted to run in the hi 80's from what I have seen and is running a stroker sb 350 at 500hp and the first boat to run a asd 6 was an 18ft and ran 78 with 280 hp sb.... some things getting lost some where... if the numbers are right... 220 hp shuld give you more then 10mph... but swinging them gears or chain takes Hp and adds drag to the over all system... the large size of the drop box leads me to think it built strong and heavy they do not brake but there's got to be a lot more rotating mass then that of a bravo.... the inline style of gearing of the arneson may save a little hp but dose the rotating mass cancel it out when side by side with a bravo or a velt 1.5.1?
now in 1978 I think that the test boat ran a 72c with 1.5.1 gear or was it a 1.1 proped to take rpm from the motor only two real thing that were around in 1978, and at 280hp they were fine with a 1.5.1, but at 500hp you'll grind. un less you crio the reduction some say that a load of bs any way.... but then zf makes a gear that will take 650hp all day but what will the hp losses be? 40hp that of an un modded velt 72c or worse?
the fact is if you needed a drop box to run an asd-6 drive on a small boat there would be no arneson drives at all. as the test boat did not run one... and according to the arneson web site the test boat "handled well and reached a top speed of 78 mph with 280 horsepower." a very respectable # for any 20 cig and much better then any one running 280hp, in fact better then most with 450hp in there 20's...
I think I can get a drive in the engine room with a 350 sb as a jet drive fit.. but the bb will need a coustom stand off to fit a zf.... still have some reading to do.. and need to search out guys racing the systems b4 the drop box was around...
just by looking at all the boats in my yard running a surface drive there are 4, trying to get an idea how to rig this thing, they all seem to be mounted as low as can be on the transom and to be as level as can be to keep the center line of the prop level to the boat bottom.. but looks can kill...
Last edited by tomuchstuff; 04-17-2010 at 11:36 PM.
04-18-2010, 12:57 PM
#133
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the first arneson was run with a 1.1 direct drive.. In 1979 and 1980...
the first drop box was thought up and put out in 1981 to 1983 to help in some installs.... the smaller asd6 1720 & 1721 were built by b/w for app's that there gears were able to with stand... arneson still built the larger drives him self at that time..
I have read all the stuff I can find so far dating back to 1979 on the arneson systems and wow there grate drive systems... howard arneson drive ..
the 1720 was the very first test model put out by B/W and was still sold as an inline when the 1721 and asd6 where first sold... seems like there was an after market company building a model 1600 drop box chain drive and selling it with the 1720 & 1721 as well as an extended prop shaft for the two drives in 1982 or 83... also the very first drives raced were using a old H style U/J joint that was only good to 700 f/p torque later changed to a c/v joint that was able to take twice that....
The h joint drives were the test drive from what I have read..
I think I have some very old drives here the serial # are low
the cigarette prototype may end up running the arneson prototype...
just odd...
the first drop box was thought up and put out in 1981 to 1983 to help in some installs.... the smaller asd6 1720 & 1721 were built by b/w for app's that there gears were able to with stand... arneson still built the larger drives him self at that time..
I have read all the stuff I can find so far dating back to 1979 on the arneson systems and wow there grate drive systems... howard arneson drive ..
the 1720 was the very first test model put out by B/W and was still sold as an inline when the 1721 and asd6 where first sold... seems like there was an after market company building a model 1600 drop box chain drive and selling it with the 1720 & 1721 as well as an extended prop shaft for the two drives in 1982 or 83... also the very first drives raced were using a old H style U/J joint that was only good to 700 f/p torque later changed to a c/v joint that was able to take twice that....
The h joint drives were the test drive from what I have read..
I think I have some very old drives here the serial # are low
the cigarette prototype may end up running the arneson prototype...
just odd...
04-19-2010, 09:25 AM
#134
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a quote frome arnerson web page..
"The hull is a standard 18 foot vee-bottom Arena Craft family runabout. Its power comes from a stock 350 cubic inch Chevrolet V-8 marinized by Crusader Marine and is rated at approximately 260 hp. A Borg Warner Velvet Drive transmission provides forward, neutral and reverse gear selection. The hull is also fitted with an electrically controlled adjustable cavitation plate. Propeller selection for the run was a virtually out-of-the-box three blade 14" x 16" Federal Ni-bral brass prop made by Michigan Wheel. Although we were expecting to see some sort of space age propeller configuration, Arneson reported that even though this conventional submerged propeller type was far from optimum for a surface piercing application, it dramatically proved how forgiving his propulsion concept was. Arneson also pointed out that any kind of propeller shaft spline or taper can be provided in order to accommodate a multitude of propeller styles and makes.
Immediately noted at low speed was predictable direction tracking with no tendency for the boat to wander as is the case with some stern drives. At idle, the propeller was just barely covered by water, however no unusual wake or froth behind the boat was created. Steering control was responsive. Maneuverability, both forward and reverse, was outstanding, almost like a jet which will pivot round in its own length. Slow speed turning was noticeably tighter than with a stern drive or outboard.
Getting up on plane was smooth and effortless with very little bow rise. Because of the propeller's close proximity to the surface, the engine tends to rev higher than with a submerged unit. However, this should riot be confused with "runaway" propeller ventilation since the surface piercing prop was efficiently biting water and moving the boat forward. As we eased on the throttle, the tachometer indicated about 3000 rpm as the boat slowly gained speed up to a clean plane.
Giving it more power on take-off brought the rpms up close to 4000 during this brief transition mode and acceleration was rapid. Actually, the ability to have the engine rev easily from an idle is an advantage, especially under a load condition since it allows the engine to enter a more favorable horsepower and torque range. Once on plane and holding a steady throttle setting, rpms decreased as the propeller came into its efficient surfacing condition. Minimum rpm to maintain a comfortable plane was 2400 to 2500.
The most impressive part of the demonstration, however, was its upper end performance. Acceleration from a speed of 25 mph was instantaneous. Utilizing a straight 1:1 ratio, and an inboard cruiser type three-blade brass prop, top speed ranged between 65 to 70 mph depending on trim position of the unit at 4700 rpm. At speed, the boat was capable of hands-off steering and no unpleasant ride characteristics such as chine-walking or poising were experienced.
Water conditions varied from smooth to considerable wind chop and small swells. During that time, the prop never once broke free of the water, a condition which many people falsely suspect as a drawback to the surface piercing concept. The same is true for high speed turns which were performed without a hint of ventilation.
Operation of the trim control is essentially the same as on a stern drive or outboard powered boat. However, from our brief evaluation, it appears that trimming the Arneson Drive causes a less significant change in trim attitude of the hull than more conventional propulsion sources. For general purposes, the Arneson Drive unit could be located at one position and left there for both planing and high speed running. However it would be noted that a full down-angle of the surface piercing drives virtually eliminates the large flowing roostertail which is characteristic of this system. In the down position, recreational water skiers should not experience any interference from the spray off the propeller."
now according to Rick at arnerson this never happened...
it is your choice Howard Arnerson or Rick who works for arnerson...
I am going with Howard! I am going 78!
where did i git the INFO?
http://www.howardarneson.com/articles/article7r.asp
Immediately noted at low speed was predictable direction tracking with no tendency for the boat to wander as is the case with some stern drives. At idle, the propeller was just barely covered by water, however no unusual wake or froth behind the boat was created. Steering control was responsive. Maneuverability, both forward and reverse, was outstanding, almost like a jet which will pivot round in its own length. Slow speed turning was noticeably tighter than with a stern drive or outboard.
Getting up on plane was smooth and effortless with very little bow rise. Because of the propeller's close proximity to the surface, the engine tends to rev higher than with a submerged unit. However, this should riot be confused with "runaway" propeller ventilation since the surface piercing prop was efficiently biting water and moving the boat forward. As we eased on the throttle, the tachometer indicated about 3000 rpm as the boat slowly gained speed up to a clean plane.
Giving it more power on take-off brought the rpms up close to 4000 during this brief transition mode and acceleration was rapid. Actually, the ability to have the engine rev easily from an idle is an advantage, especially under a load condition since it allows the engine to enter a more favorable horsepower and torque range. Once on plane and holding a steady throttle setting, rpms decreased as the propeller came into its efficient surfacing condition. Minimum rpm to maintain a comfortable plane was 2400 to 2500.
The most impressive part of the demonstration, however, was its upper end performance. Acceleration from a speed of 25 mph was instantaneous. Utilizing a straight 1:1 ratio, and an inboard cruiser type three-blade brass prop, top speed ranged between 65 to 70 mph depending on trim position of the unit at 4700 rpm. At speed, the boat was capable of hands-off steering and no unpleasant ride characteristics such as chine-walking or poising were experienced.
Water conditions varied from smooth to considerable wind chop and small swells. During that time, the prop never once broke free of the water, a condition which many people falsely suspect as a drawback to the surface piercing concept. The same is true for high speed turns which were performed without a hint of ventilation.
Operation of the trim control is essentially the same as on a stern drive or outboard powered boat. However, from our brief evaluation, it appears that trimming the Arneson Drive causes a less significant change in trim attitude of the hull than more conventional propulsion sources. For general purposes, the Arneson Drive unit could be located at one position and left there for both planing and high speed running. However it would be noted that a full down-angle of the surface piercing drives virtually eliminates the large flowing roostertail which is characteristic of this system. In the down position, recreational water skiers should not experience any interference from the spray off the propeller."
now according to Rick at arnerson this never happened...
it is your choice Howard Arnerson or Rick who works for arnerson...
I am going with Howard! I am going 78!
where did i git the INFO?
http://www.howardarneson.com/articles/article7r.asp
04-20-2010, 12:05 AM
#135
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photos of howard arnesons 18ft surface drive 1979
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo...eat=directlink
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo...eat=directlink
The first photo is of howard arneson's 70mph and 78 mph test boats..
This is what my cigarette set up will look like nice and clean, no stand off box, no drop box, clean... if I stay little M small block.. but then my lazy bb idea is gone... have to build a pi$$ed of sb...
... the drive's I have are the same as in the photo.... there was no steer ram at the time only trim in 1983, look at the non arneson rams the boats do not have any trim tabs one has a fixed trim.... neat. telling.... the second photo the boat dose not even have the delta wing...
I have 1 extra set of the drives for sale....
there are no gears to up grade here just a shaft and a H style u joint good to 700fp torque..... that's more then 800 hp....
not that I want any thing like that....
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo...eat=directlink
The first photo is of howard arneson's 70mph and 78 mph test boats..
This is what my cigarette set up will look like nice and clean, no stand off box, no drop box, clean... if I stay little M small block.. but then my lazy bb idea is gone... have to build a pi$$ed of sb...
... the drive's I have are the same as in the photo.... there was no steer ram at the time only trim in 1983, look at the non arneson rams the boats do not have any trim tabs one has a fixed trim.... neat. telling.... the second photo the boat dose not even have the delta wing...
I have 1 extra set of the drives for sale....
there are no gears to up grade here just a shaft and a H style u joint good to 700fp torque..... that's more then 800 hp....
not that I want any thing like that....
04-21-2010, 10:48 AM
#136
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well I have read a lot of test data in the last day or two on running the drive in the 18ft test boat... I am using my drive on a 19.7 cigarette it's why I have been reading...
Howard Arneson ran the 18ft 1:1 with the 260hp motor and a 16 x 14% M/W for 70mph, after maybe some pitching and adding 20hp he ran 78mph
Twin Disk ran the 18 with a !:! and there drop box 1.5:1 with 450 hp ford and a and ran a 16 3/4 x 21or22% pitch and made 88mph at the same rpm....
that's a real good side to side on the way the system runs !to! and 1.5to1 thro a drop box.... same size boat both tests by who is running the shop at the time in there own words.....
the data is all from howard arnason and twin disk. it all on howard arnersons site.....
wow so it took 180hp for twin disk to out run howard's time by 10 mph...
so 22K for 10 mph and 20k more on the engine by what the data shows... I know, I know 22k for the drop box and 100 of my horses is all twin disk wants.....
Pitch Baby....
this gives me a good pitch range for testing my boat 14 to 21, and running 1:1 with more hp I think may be 15 or 16 % but just off the top of my head...
now I have been told by twin disk my drives are old but not from howard's shop and other parts dealers have gotten large lots of old 1720's so they were produced...
here's the kicker and I mean the real kicker.....
I got 3 props with the drive's, two 16 3/4 x 21 and one 16 3/4 x 22 brass 3 blade's and that is the same same exact size, style and the 21's are the same pitch as the prop that was used on the twin disc 18 test boat....
it means nothing,,,, but it strange the lot I bought that is marked to be dropped off at the freight depo tomarrow has 3 props that size, style and pitch alto wrong for a 1:1 I can pitch them... think about the odds of getting the correct prop hear guys.... maybe they are all 1721's the photos I have suck......
Howard Arneson ran the 18ft 1:1 with the 260hp motor and a 16 x 14% M/W for 70mph, after maybe some pitching and adding 20hp he ran 78mph
Twin Disk ran the 18 with a !:! and there drop box 1.5:1 with 450 hp ford and a and ran a 16 3/4 x 21or22% pitch and made 88mph at the same rpm....
that's a real good side to side on the way the system runs !to! and 1.5to1 thro a drop box.... same size boat both tests by who is running the shop at the time in there own words.....
the data is all from howard arnason and twin disk. it all on howard arnersons site.....
wow so it took 180hp for twin disk to out run howard's time by 10 mph...
so 22K for 10 mph and 20k more on the engine by what the data shows... I know, I know 22k for the drop box and 100 of my horses is all twin disk wants.....
Pitch Baby....
this gives me a good pitch range for testing my boat 14 to 21, and running 1:1 with more hp I think may be 15 or 16 % but just off the top of my head...
now I have been told by twin disk my drives are old but not from howard's shop and other parts dealers have gotten large lots of old 1720's so they were produced...
here's the kicker and I mean the real kicker.....
I got 3 props with the drive's, two 16 3/4 x 21 and one 16 3/4 x 22 brass 3 blade's and that is the same same exact size, style and the 21's are the same pitch as the prop that was used on the twin disc 18 test boat....
it means nothing,,,, but it strange the lot I bought that is marked to be dropped off at the freight depo tomarrow has 3 props that size, style and pitch alto wrong for a 1:1 I can pitch them... think about the odds of getting the correct prop hear guys.... maybe they are all 1721's the photos I have suck......
04-22-2010, 09:51 AM
#137
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Rick at arneson called me yesterday... He explained that although I have found more then one reference to the fact that Howard Arnerson's first test boat ran 1:1 Rick insists it was a chain drive in the engine compartment that the righter over looked when explaining how the drive system used a standard in board coupler to connect to the 1:1 velt... He also let me know that Howard arneson has noting to do with the Howard arneson web site, and can not control what content is on there site... I do trust the data on the site, and the data I found on the arneson industries website, when I checked it was matching data.
towards the end of the call after I just was not buying the chain dive i have never read about any where not even ad's offering such a drive 1979 in other markets. He told me I can run 1:1 but why they do not recommended doing so...
the boat will not plain as quickly. 4000 rpm
the boat will not hold plane below 2400 rpm.
if you look at the side by side data of the twin disk test and the test drive and compare the rpm ranges.
the boat come on plane at 3800rpm in 1.5:1
the boat will hold plane down to 2000rpm in 1.5:1
the only other difference it the top speed your much faster with 1:1. you end up with all but 9hp in the water with in !:! expect to give up 30 to 50% running throw and gear driven or chain system...
from all the data I have found a cigarette 19.7 will go faster then 88mph running 450hp !:! direct. how much faster there not much vested interest in saying....
what do I think about twin disks thought's on running the system 1:1 it make pitching all the boats they do a pain.... see if you sell a 1.5:1 gas and a 1:1 diesel it make running pitch # some what standard. and for 99% of boats the drop box makes the system fit.. the drop box also take a little of the edge off the system making if more open market... and lastly gas boats are a small part of there market and small boats are rely no part of there market plain... over all its just good business to recommended a drop gear to every last gas powered boater that calls.
towards the end of the call after I just was not buying the chain dive i have never read about any where not even ad's offering such a drive 1979 in other markets. He told me I can run 1:1 but why they do not recommended doing so...
the boat will not plain as quickly. 4000 rpm
the boat will not hold plane below 2400 rpm.
if you look at the side by side data of the twin disk test and the test drive and compare the rpm ranges.
the boat come on plane at 3800rpm in 1.5:1
the boat will hold plane down to 2000rpm in 1.5:1
the only other difference it the top speed your much faster with 1:1. you end up with all but 9hp in the water with in !:! expect to give up 30 to 50% running throw and gear driven or chain system...
from all the data I have found a cigarette 19.7 will go faster then 88mph running 450hp !:! direct. how much faster there not much vested interest in saying....
what do I think about twin disks thought's on running the system 1:1 it make pitching all the boats they do a pain.... see if you sell a 1.5:1 gas and a 1:1 diesel it make running pitch # some what standard. and for 99% of boats the drop box makes the system fit.. the drop box also take a little of the edge off the system making if more open market... and lastly gas boats are a small part of there market and small boats are rely no part of there market plain... over all its just good business to recommended a drop gear to every last gas powered boater that calls.
04-22-2010, 10:16 AM
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04-22-2010, 12:05 PM
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want to see what I got today?
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo...eat=directlink
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo...eat=directlink
dose any one other then me think it's strange that 2 of the drives a cast patent pending? kind first gen! or that the 3 props are the exact same size and pitch as the 18ft twin disk test boat? the extra ball is still in a cloth bank bag like the ones banks move cash in like the guy told me...
may not be any thing but odd
I buy 6 drives knowing nothing about the surface drive system and get the right set up for an 18 with the correct props.....
there all new!!!!
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo...eat=directlink
dose any one other then me think it's strange that 2 of the drives a cast patent pending? kind first gen! or that the 3 props are the exact same size and pitch as the 18ft twin disk test boat? the extra ball is still in a cloth bank bag like the ones banks move cash in like the guy told me...
may not be any thing but odd
I buy 6 drives knowing nothing about the surface drive system and get the right set up for an 18 with the correct props.....
there all new!!!!
