Wave handling: Formula 233 vs F3LS
09-15-2011, 04:25 PM
#11
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Company in Australia has the molds and has been building 233s:
http://www.edencraft.com.au/formula.html
http://formula233registry.ning.com/p...ource=activity
http://www.edencraft.com.au/formula.html
http://formula233registry.ning.com/p...ource=activity
I am guessing they have "copies" of the molds, or molds cloned from Formula hulls? After talking with Scott at Formula a few months ago about my hull, he said they have the molds and any copies are "not authorized" and that they NEVER let other companies "use" them.
Of course in the boat mold world...strange things obviously happen, so who knows.
09-15-2011, 06:28 PM
#13
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$1000 without Fuel Tank, $1200 with Fuel Tank.
Can post or send more pics if needed.
Not looking to score, would like to see it go to a good home...AND if someone makes a nice authentic "#16" replica out of it...I will refund 50% back after it is finished, and I get to go for a ride in it. :-)
Can post or send more pics if needed.
Not looking to score, would like to see it go to a good home...AND if someone makes a nice authentic "#16" replica out of it...I will refund 50% back after it is finished, and I get to go for a ride in it. :-)
09-15-2011, 07:10 PM
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HTRD - awesome looking virgin hull! I have neither the time nor the expertise to finish that project, but what a great starting point for someone who does. The 233 two hours north of me sold yesterday. I had cash in hand and was about an hour away when I called the seller and he gave me the bad news. That's the second big block 233 that's got away, and I'm not a happy camper (with myself) right now. The alternative is to find something larger, but I want to stay away from twins, and it sure as hell better have a cushy ride. A friend of mine has a '77 Spectra 24ft v-drive daycruiser (made in CA) with a massaged 454 (and velvet drive trans) that I'm tossing around in my mind. I have never been in a boat that size that rode as well in the rough -- it never pounds. It's very heavy and Spectra built a version of this hull for the Coast Guard back in the 70s to patrol the Pacific Ocean in Southern CA, so they're pretty tough. The one issue that I'm concerned about it the small freeboard -- not that it would swamp but just to stay dry and for psychological reasons. But I can't get the damn 233 out of my head . . . . . .
09-15-2011, 07:28 PM
#15
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Here, let me help you......make it even WORSE :-)
Think about a little ole 1963 Fiberglass boat that won the Miami to Bimini Offshore Race that same year.
Then survived a Beatle infestation in 1964 on the famous first US visit....(Ill let you guess who was driving)
Was left derelict outside for 25-30 years....
Can be restored...
"I was in the very first race boat that Don ever built for himself from one of his own companies. It was called "The Cigarette". It was a 233 Formula powered by a 1963 409 cu in engine on a Merc Sterndrive. The boat was totally restored a few years ago and the only thing not stock is the sterndrive....the owner did not feel the original one would hold up to the new power. ( he still has the original one in a box)." - Charlie McCarthy of Team Banana - Who BTW, also drove the restored boat in the 2008 race...talk about full circle!!
AND, 45 Years Later, win in it's class in a real offshore race. OK, OK, it was the only Historic Class entry, but Miami to Bimini and back crossing the gulf stream each way is not a cake walk.
It is arguably THE boat that started it all, Formula, Cigarette, Donzi, Magnum, and on and on.
Keep in mind these pics aren't of the same type or model of boat...but THE SAME BOAT...almost 50 years later!!
Think about a little ole 1963 Fiberglass boat that won the Miami to Bimini Offshore Race that same year.
Then survived a Beatle infestation in 1964 on the famous first US visit....(Ill let you guess who was driving)
Was left derelict outside for 25-30 years....
Can be restored...
"I was in the very first race boat that Don ever built for himself from one of his own companies. It was called "The Cigarette". It was a 233 Formula powered by a 1963 409 cu in engine on a Merc Sterndrive. The boat was totally restored a few years ago and the only thing not stock is the sterndrive....the owner did not feel the original one would hold up to the new power. ( he still has the original one in a box)." - Charlie McCarthy of Team Banana - Who BTW, also drove the restored boat in the 2008 race...talk about full circle!!
AND, 45 Years Later, win in it's class in a real offshore race. OK, OK, it was the only Historic Class entry, but Miami to Bimini and back crossing the gulf stream each way is not a cake walk.
It is arguably THE boat that started it all, Formula, Cigarette, Donzi, Magnum, and on and on.
Keep in mind these pics aren't of the same type or model of boat...but THE SAME BOAT...almost 50 years later!!
09-15-2011, 08:01 PM
#16
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HTRDLNCN,
I am guessing they have "copies" of the molds, or molds cloned from Formula hulls? After talking with Scott at Formula a few months ago about my hull, he said they have the molds and any copies are "not authorized" and that they NEVER let other companies "use" them.
Of course in the boat mold world...strange things obviously happen, so who knows.
I am guessing they have "copies" of the molds, or molds cloned from Formula hulls? After talking with Scott at Formula a few months ago about my hull, he said they have the molds and any copies are "not authorized" and that they NEVER let other companies "use" them.
Of course in the boat mold world...strange things obviously happen, so who knows.
09-15-2011, 09:04 PM
#17
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I just bought a 79 233 interceptor and I can't wait to hit the water as soon as it's ready. I didn't know anything about the boat until after I bought it, and now that I see people everywhere talking about how great the 233 is I love it even more.
I've been working on it weekends for about a month now (college student) and I'm probably 2 weekends away from her maiden voyage. I got it from the original owner and he had the motor replaced with a quicksilver crate motor in 2001. The outdrive though is a volvo 280pt which I learned wasn't around that long. If only it was an alpha....
What kind of comfortable cruising speed will I have in relatively calm water? Is 40 a bit optimistic?
I've been working on it weekends for about a month now (college student) and I'm probably 2 weekends away from her maiden voyage. I got it from the original owner and he had the motor replaced with a quicksilver crate motor in 2001. The outdrive though is a volvo 280pt which I learned wasn't around that long. If only it was an alpha....
What kind of comfortable cruising speed will I have in relatively calm water? Is 40 a bit optimistic?
09-15-2011, 10:11 PM
#18
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I do indeed harbor a great appreciation for the 233.
That angle of attack has quite a bit to do with the 233's excellent rough water ability. The prominent entry increases the relative buoyancy of the bow. This helps it to run on the topside of the waves.
I look forward to reading what you think of it. Be sure to check the engine compartment bulkhead (behind the rear bench seat) for moisture. That is a marvelous package if it's all up to snuff.
The pictures look good, but then, they always do. I like the graphics.
Formula offered the 233 in the Interceptor configuration from '78 to '80. From '81 to '83 it was offered in the LS configuration.
The only differences I know of are the ones that you state. The Interceptor has a longer V-berth and the two wooden support pillars in place of the usual bulkhead.
The LS trim features a slightly shorter, more standard size V-berth in order to accommodate the addition of the freshwater sink to starboard and icebox to port. A standard forward bulkhead replaced the wooden pillars.
In '83, the one-piece high bow rail was changed for the more conventional two-piece low rise variant.
Beyond that, I am not aware of any structural differences.
I love the 302, also. But, like most Formulas, they were severely underpowered with just a pair of 330 HP Mercs. You really need at least 500 HP a side to get some agility, but twins do complicate the situation a bit.
Rough water ability should always be of paramount consideration.
The nice thing about the 233 is that it is such a practical boat to own. A lot of boat in a small package.
There weren't many boats as seaworthy as the 233 in those days. Your choices were somewhat limited, and there wasn't much that could match the 233's versatility at its price point.
A great point to consider. I believe that the rounded keel has something to do with with the excellent ride characteristics.
The round bottom actually translates into slightly less total deadrise of the running surface than the usual direct vee.
This smoother shape tends to stay on top of the waves instead of cutting down in by virtue of its width.
When the boat catches air, the reentry is comparatively soft because that round keel will displace the water in a more gradual manner with more pressure being applied consistently over a wider surface area. In effect, the water is being slowly squished to either side instead of being sliced rapidly.
This is very fascinating stuff to ponder. I intend to build a scale R/C model 233 to study the mechanics of its interaction with the water. There is much to be learned from these old hulls. They really are something special.
I can't help but be highly critical of modern boats with stepped hulls and integrated swim platforms, etc. It's amazing how marine design went from being elegantly nautical and refined in style during the 1940s to 1980s (lots of teak trim, crushed velour upholstery in the cabin), then became ridiculously gaudy and wild in the mid/late 90s to the present.
The charm simply isn't there anymore. The industry lost direction.
Of all the companies Aronow started, Magnum Marine is the sole exception. They still build hulls the old way, and their styling is timeless as ever.
Well, that's enough of my pointless ramblings for now.
Let us know how that 233 works out tomorrow.
That angle of attack has quite a bit to do with the 233's excellent rough water ability. The prominent entry increases the relative buoyancy of the bow. This helps it to run on the topside of the waves.
I look forward to reading what you think of it. Be sure to check the engine compartment bulkhead (behind the rear bench seat) for moisture. That is a marvelous package if it's all up to snuff.
The pictures look good, but then, they always do. I like the graphics.
Formula offered the 233 in the Interceptor configuration from '78 to '80. From '81 to '83 it was offered in the LS configuration.
The only differences I know of are the ones that you state. The Interceptor has a longer V-berth and the two wooden support pillars in place of the usual bulkhead.
The LS trim features a slightly shorter, more standard size V-berth in order to accommodate the addition of the freshwater sink to starboard and icebox to port. A standard forward bulkhead replaced the wooden pillars.
In '83, the one-piece high bow rail was changed for the more conventional two-piece low rise variant.
Beyond that, I am not aware of any structural differences.
I love the 302, also. But, like most Formulas, they were severely underpowered with just a pair of 330 HP Mercs. You really need at least 500 HP a side to get some agility, but twins do complicate the situation a bit.
Rough water ability should always be of paramount consideration.
The nice thing about the 233 is that it is such a practical boat to own. A lot of boat in a small package.
There weren't many boats as seaworthy as the 233 in those days. Your choices were somewhat limited, and there wasn't much that could match the 233's versatility at its price point.
A great point to consider. I believe that the rounded keel has something to do with with the excellent ride characteristics.
The round bottom actually translates into slightly less total deadrise of the running surface than the usual direct vee.
This smoother shape tends to stay on top of the waves instead of cutting down in by virtue of its width.
When the boat catches air, the reentry is comparatively soft because that round keel will displace the water in a more gradual manner with more pressure being applied consistently over a wider surface area. In effect, the water is being slowly squished to either side instead of being sliced rapidly.
This is very fascinating stuff to ponder. I intend to build a scale R/C model 233 to study the mechanics of its interaction with the water. There is much to be learned from these old hulls. They really are something special.
I can't help but be highly critical of modern boats with stepped hulls and integrated swim platforms, etc. It's amazing how marine design went from being elegantly nautical and refined in style during the 1940s to 1980s (lots of teak trim, crushed velour upholstery in the cabin), then became ridiculously gaudy and wild in the mid/late 90s to the present.
The charm simply isn't there anymore. The industry lost direction.
Of all the companies Aronow started, Magnum Marine is the sole exception. They still build hulls the old way, and their styling is timeless as ever.
Well, that's enough of my pointless ramblings for now.
Let us know how that 233 works out tomorrow.
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Back to the Future...Formula 255 Liberator
I had my neighbor out Labor day in 3'~5' seas running 35~45 MPH. He looked at me and said "Now I know....it all makes sense to me now!!"...and he didn't even have to raise his voice to tell me.
I was recently at All American Trailer in Pompano negotiating a new trailer. There was an "Old Salt" there with 35' Cigarette Mistress having a trailer put under it. He spotted my boat and walked all the way across the yard to take a look. He told me that during the '70's he worked at South Florida Marine which was the Formula dealer in Homestead at the time. The owner had a very good connection with Vic Porter over at Thunderbird and they were able to get some customization done for their customers. Several of the rigs they had put together were for a certain Peruvian "businessman" that had a thriving import business involving "recreational pharmaceuticals". He explained that the Liberator they had built came from Formula Miami in two shipments. The first was a complete boat in all respects with out engines or drives ...but the transom was cut for TRS drives. The engines and drives came separately and were Kiekhaefer/Mercury 450 horse "Cyclones" and "speed-master" TRS dives. The boat also had K-Planes. The explanation was that the 255 was under rated by the Coast Guard and BIA as to it's load capacity and that it was easy to carry a ton of cargo in the 255 and still be able to run close to 60 MPH. Formula would not install the engines due to liability issues and officially sold the boat for "export"...RIGHT!! This cat told us that the boat would top 85 easily and was solid as a rock. It was small enough to trailer around with a normal sized pick up but stout enough to get the job done. I asked if the high free-board was a factor...he looked at me and said "Ding...Ding...Ding...effing.. Ding"!!!
Allegedly there were several of these delivered through that dealership along with a very few 255 "Sportsman" center consoles with twin 260's or 255 (351 Fords) under the console amidships with drive-shafts connecting to the stern drives at the rear. That boat had twin tanks located down each side below deck. He told us that configuration was the best riding offshore boat he has ever been on.
He told us also of a few extremely fast 233 "big cockpit" boats in the mid '60's that had twin 350 horse 327 Chevy's running through Volvo drives. He mentioned that the Volvo 290 drive was the hands down favorite with the local crowd down here for High Performance work because they were so strong right out of the box. He said that most of the old "Sweet 16" and 18' Donzi's came with Volvo's because that's the way Don (Arronow) spec'd them out.
I have to try and find that gentleman again...he was a walking encyclopedia of the boating business in South Florida during the '60's, '70's and '80's.
Last edited by sprink58; 09-15-2011 at 11:17 PM.
09-15-2011, 11:15 PM
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Way to go John -- that 255 must chop em up and spit em out! The F3 has been a bit of a disappointment in that it hits oncoming waves (I'm guessing 4 footers) pretty hard (thud) -- not what I expected from a 24 degree Formula. It does pretty well going with the waves. I'm sure it's better than 90% of the 21 footers out there, but it's not going to cut the mustard, since pretty much all of our boating is on Lake MI and 3+ footers are the norm, and I'm not excited about going out by myself. The waves here are much tighter than on the ocean, so when you come off of one wave, you're hitting the next wave right in the middle or at the top, as opposed to going into a trough. An old friend has a 24ft Spectra v-drive daycruiser that, to my memory, rode more comfortably on the big lake -- I never felt that thud/crunch going into the waves. Those Spectras were built to handle the Pacific off the CA coast, and they pretty much a custom boat company. Being a daycruiser they had less freeboard than a typical 24 foot boat (lots less than the 255), which is typical of the CA styling at that time. Maybe a 255 with a twin turbo/intercooled/502/BW/TRS would be the hot ticket (I prefer single engine).
