Carb to EFI Swap WORTH IT?
02-23-2014, 09:57 AM
#31
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02-23-2014, 12:48 PM
#32
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Wow pretty harsh, I'm no expert but I would like to learn of this "REVERSION" you speak of? After spending all of last year cutting up and redoing a 525 intake only to have to end up building one, reversion was never one of our problems! But I'm always willing to learn from the experts? Oh and by the way I'm a old carb guy from the late 80's back when we could only get 1200 hp from a 496.[ATTACH=CONFIG]519131[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]519132[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]519133[/ATTACH]
02-23-2014, 02:50 PM
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As far as power levels, in any form of forced induction motor you can safely make more power with EFI, unless you spend a LOT of time on your carb's, and invest in a very sophisticated timing control system. On a basic NA motor, just bolting on an efi system probably won't make more peak hp then a well setup carb, or even as much sometimes. However, if you know what you're doing, and have the equipment, you can maximize cylinder to cylinder fueling and spark, adjust when the injector fires in relation to the position of the piston, and build any form of spark and fuel map you like. This type of tuning will almost always make more power. Even without getting crazy there are ways to find lost power. I was recently helping a very experienced engine builder who was tuning his first set of EFI engine's on his dyno. After a few pulls, he commented that the timing he found for peak power, resulted in a little drop in peak torque; he was still thinking like a carb tuner. I told him to leave the peak power area alone, and adjust the timing only in the peak torque area.. Bingo, same peak power, and more torque. This was on an 800+ hp NA 572. I've never seen an engine that wanted the same timing at peak torque as it does at peak power, or even the same AFR for that matter. Once you've experienced tuning in .25 degrees of timing, and .1 points AFR, you'll never consider carb's being comparable in any way to a good efi system. Wether or not it's "worth it" is totally up to the end user, there are lots of very driveable, reliable carb motors out there as MILD T and others pointed out.
02-23-2014, 02:57 PM
#34
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Wow pretty harsh, I'm no expert but I would like to learn of this "REVERSION" you speak of? After spending all of last year cutting up and redoing a 525 intake only to have to end up building one, reversion was never one of our problems! But I'm always willing to learn from the experts? Oh and by the way I'm a old carb guy from the late 80's back when we could only get 1200 hp from a 496.[ATTACH=CONFIG]519131[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]519132[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]519133[/ATTACH]
I never knew Reversion was a problem. Every motor has reversion some more so than others depending on how soon the intake valve is closed. All efi intakes are designed in a similar fashion because of reversion. My only thing is that some people make efi to be the best thing since sliced bread and the fact of the matter is it works well when it is working but for the money it's hard to beat the old Stone Age carbs.
02-23-2014, 03:01 PM
#35
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The question of "is it worth it", is really a very broad one. It sounds like your setup is very well dialed in, and you may have no need, or desire, for a safer, better running engine. A lot of people seem to put too much focus on the fuel metering part of the comparison. In reality, the benefits of an efi system are much greater then fuel alone. Here's a few: The ability to run, or tame, a much more aggressive camshaft due to the ability to combat reversion through tuning and maintain driveability through IAC and precise timing control. Got tall gears and huge props, no problem. Unlimited programmable safety's - Inlet air temp climbing 'cause your'e intercooler's not getting enough water: Ecu can start pulling timing as it increases, sound an alarm, and drop the engine into limp mode if the condition persists. Fuel psi drop from plugged filter, etc: Ecu will sound an alarm, adjust fuel delivery to maintain safe AFR, and drop engine to limp mode if required. Got some bad fuel: Knock sensors will pull timing, sound an alarm, and go into limp mode if necessary. Oil pressure, water pressure, oil temp, engine temp, etc.. All fully adjustable to whatever number you're comfortable with.
As far as power levels, in any form of forced induction motor you can safely make more power with EFI, unless you spend a LOT of time on your carb's, and invest in a very sophisticated timing control system. On a basic NA motor, just bolting on an efi system probably won't make more peak hp then a well setup carb, or even as much sometimes. However, if you know what you're doing, and have the equipment, you can maximize cylinder to cylinder fueling and spark, adjust when the injector fires in relation to the position of the piston, and build any form of spark and fuel map you like. This type of tuning will almost always make more power. Even without getting crazy there are ways to find lost power. I was recently helping a very experienced engine builder who was tuning his first set of EFI engine's on his dyno. After a few pulls, he commented that the timing he found for peak power, resulted in a little drop in peak torque; he was still thinking like a carb tuner. I told him to leave the peak power area alone, and adjust the timing only in the peak torque area.. Bingo, same peak power, and more torque. This was on an 800+ hp NA 572. I've never seen an engine that wanted the same timing at peak torque as it does at peak power, or even the same AFR for that matter. Once you've experienced tuning in .25 degrees of timing, and .1 points AFR, you'll never consider carb's being comparable in any way to a good efi system. Wether or not it's "worth it" is totally up to the end user, there are lots of very driveable, reliable carb motors out there as MILD T and others pointed out.
As far as power levels, in any form of forced induction motor you can safely make more power with EFI, unless you spend a LOT of time on your carb's, and invest in a very sophisticated timing control system. On a basic NA motor, just bolting on an efi system probably won't make more peak hp then a well setup carb, or even as much sometimes. However, if you know what you're doing, and have the equipment, you can maximize cylinder to cylinder fueling and spark, adjust when the injector fires in relation to the position of the piston, and build any form of spark and fuel map you like. This type of tuning will almost always make more power. Even without getting crazy there are ways to find lost power. I was recently helping a very experienced engine builder who was tuning his first set of EFI engine's on his dyno. After a few pulls, he commented that the timing he found for peak power, resulted in a little drop in peak torque; he was still thinking like a carb tuner. I told him to leave the peak power area alone, and adjust the timing only in the peak torque area.. Bingo, same peak power, and more torque. This was on an 800+ hp NA 572. I've never seen an engine that wanted the same timing at peak torque as it does at peak power, or even the same AFR for that matter. Once you've experienced tuning in .25 degrees of timing, and .1 points AFR, you'll never consider carb's being comparable in any way to a good efi system. Wether or not it's "worth it" is totally up to the end user, there are lots of very driveable, reliable carb motors out there as MILD T and others pointed out.
02-23-2014, 04:22 PM
#37
I like haxbyspeeds point about the engine protection and precise tuning .My point with the op was that for more performance from where he is now .. efi isn't the answer. More cubic dollars on hardparts first...My Opinion
02-23-2014, 07:16 PM
#39
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Electronic sequential port injection is not 2014 technology. It's been around a long long time. What is 2014 technology is the average guy who owns a Stanley socket set can bolt it on and have it work beautifully. The technology that got us to that point Is truly awesome . Would I want a carb on any of my daily drivers nowadays, no way. My boat however, serves me one purpose, which is solely fun. If my pocket book would allow me to convert my twin roots blown engines to full efi, I'd do it in a second. But then again, if my pocket book had some extra padding, I'd be buying Whipples to replace my dinosaur roots blowers.
Imo , there are better ways to upgrade the flat tappet 1960s cylinder headed .77hp per ci 502 than simply bolting an efi setup on it. I'd rather invest in better cylinder heads, exhaust, cam , etc. If money isn't a concern, the do all the above and efi and now you have a great package!!
Imo , there are better ways to upgrade the flat tappet 1960s cylinder headed .77hp per ci 502 than simply bolting an efi setup on it. I'd rather invest in better cylinder heads, exhaust, cam , etc. If money isn't a concern, the do all the above and efi and now you have a great package!!
what order would you recommend while still using thru prop exhaust, or is the answer "don't waste your money unless you change the exhaust"?
02-23-2014, 07:21 PM
#40
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The question of "is it worth it", is really a very broad one. It sounds like your setup is very well dialed in, and you may have no need, or desire, for a safer, better running engine. A lot of people seem to put too much focus on the fuel metering part of the comparison. In reality, the benefits of an efi system are much greater then fuel alone. Here's a few: The ability to run, or tame, a much more aggressive camshaft due to the ability to combat reversion through tuning and maintain driveability through IAC and precise timing control. Got tall gears and huge props, no problem. Unlimited programmable safety's - Inlet air temp climbing 'cause your'e intercooler's not getting enough water: Ecu can start pulling timing as it increases, sound an alarm, and drop the engine into limp mode if the condition persists. Fuel psi drop from plugged filter, etc: Ecu will sound an alarm, adjust fuel delivery to maintain safe AFR, and drop engine to limp mode if required. Got some bad fuel: Knock sensors will pull timing, sound an alarm, and go into limp mode if necessary. Oil pressure, water pressure, oil temp, engine temp, etc.. All fully adjustable to whatever number you're comfortable with.
As far as power levels, in any form of forced induction motor you can safely make more power with EFI, unless you spend a LOT of time on your carb's, and invest in a very sophisticated timing control system. On a basic NA motor, just bolting on an efi system probably won't make more peak hp then a well setup carb, or even as much sometimes. However, if you know what you're doing, and have the equipment, you can maximize cylinder to cylinder fueling and spark, adjust when the injector fires in relation to the position of the piston, and build any form of spark and fuel map you like. This type of tuning will almost always make more power. Even without getting crazy there are ways to find lost power. I was recently helping a very experienced engine builder who was tuning his first set of EFI engine's on his dyno. After a few pulls, he commented that the timing he found for peak power, resulted in a little drop in peak torque; he was still thinking like a carb tuner. I told him to leave the peak power area alone, and adjust the timing only in the peak torque area.. Bingo, same peak power, and more torque. This was on an 800+ hp NA 572. I've never seen an engine that wanted the same timing at peak torque as it does at peak power, or even the same AFR for that matter. Once you've experienced tuning in .25 degrees of timing, and .1 points AFR, you'll never consider carb's being comparable in any way to a good efi system. Wether or not it's "worth it" is totally up to the end user, there are lots of very driveable, reliable carb motors out there as MILD T and others pointed out.
As far as power levels, in any form of forced induction motor you can safely make more power with EFI, unless you spend a LOT of time on your carb's, and invest in a very sophisticated timing control system. On a basic NA motor, just bolting on an efi system probably won't make more peak hp then a well setup carb, or even as much sometimes. However, if you know what you're doing, and have the equipment, you can maximize cylinder to cylinder fueling and spark, adjust when the injector fires in relation to the position of the piston, and build any form of spark and fuel map you like. This type of tuning will almost always make more power. Even without getting crazy there are ways to find lost power. I was recently helping a very experienced engine builder who was tuning his first set of EFI engine's on his dyno. After a few pulls, he commented that the timing he found for peak power, resulted in a little drop in peak torque; he was still thinking like a carb tuner. I told him to leave the peak power area alone, and adjust the timing only in the peak torque area.. Bingo, same peak power, and more torque. This was on an 800+ hp NA 572. I've never seen an engine that wanted the same timing at peak torque as it does at peak power, or even the same AFR for that matter. Once you've experienced tuning in .25 degrees of timing, and .1 points AFR, you'll never consider carb's being comparable in any way to a good efi system. Wether or not it's "worth it" is totally up to the end user, there are lots of very driveable, reliable carb motors out there as MILD T and others pointed out.
this is totally speaking to me because of my limited mechanical knowledge, I could be driving around all summer lean or rich and have no idea. Heck I could be knocking away and not know it. Your kit sounds great plus I am in Canada, is they type of tuning you describe available remotely? By the way WE KICKED ASS IN HOCKEY
