some docs, more to come
Okay guys, after a LOT of help from guys here on a "behind the scenes" problem, I am ready to go prime time.... here is the story....
I had a LOT of engine problems with my boat this year, so in August I purchased what I thought were two NEW GM marine engines from Marine Engines, Inc, aka 1800runsnew - http://www.1800runsnew.com/newgm.htm
We installed the motors, and ran the boat on a 15 minute sea trial and all liked good. I took the boat to a third shop for a quick look over the install, just to be sure, everything looked good.
The next morning I took the boat out before our poker run and ran it for 20 minutes or so trying to break in motors. Everything seemed good, of course I was watching everything like a hawk. Parked the boat and went to breakfast with the poker run folks.
Corey (370-388-0102) arrived and we went over the boat again checking the install, again everything looked good. We idled for 15 minutes or so waiting for the poker run to start, when it started we eased the rpm’s up to about 3200 for a couple minutes, then 4200 for a couple minutes, then the water got rough and we backed off to 3200 RPM’s again. Corey noticed a noise so we brought the boat to idle and I could hear it too, we shut off the motors.
After sitting and cursing over a beer or 12 we immediately took the boat to Corey’s shop, he has had it since.
We contacted Marine Engines, he said we detonated the motors, and to send it back. We got permission to pull the heads and oil pan, but not rods and mains.
I called Pat Robinson (270-744-0032), a well known engine builder in our area to go with me to disassemble the motor, Corey had pulled it out of the boat.
We disassembled the motor and found very nice burn patters in the cylinders and no signs of detonation. Looking at the heads and top of the pistons everything looked good, might could have used a little extra fuel, but everything well within parameters.
We pulled the oil pan and found copious amounts of GOO, which we later found to be the babbit material from the bearings. We identified #5 and 6 rod mains as being loose. We could go no further. The motors were crated, disassembled, and sent back to Marine Engines.
Marine Engines diagnosed the failure as over fueling cylinders 5 and 6 only, causing oil dilution, causing bearing failure on rod 5 and 6 only, but no problems on other rods and mains. He states emphatically those were the only two bearings in bad shape, and ABT Machine in Holliston MA confirmed this analysis.
His reasoning was the motors REEKED of gasoline when it arrived.
He states I must buy another motor from him, because "I can't get these motors anywhere else", and of course, I have two of them and one is a problem.
I looked up ABT Marine’s phone number and inquired to the condition of the motor, he stated all bearings were wiped out, and so was the crank. I ask about his failure analysis and he was adamant that the motor was to far gone to diagnose. He assumed an install problem (as did I). Seemed like a real nice guy.
I pulled en oil sample from the oil filter and sent it to STAVELEY service, you can get them at NAPA, part number 4077 (I think) for $14 and that includes the lab fees. Received back the oil analysis below. It states a LOT of contaminates in the oil, but no fuel <1%. Pat, Corey, Corey’s tech, office manager I were all within inches of the crankcase of the motor and smelled no gasoline. The driver for R&L Carriers states the motor did not smell of gasoline and it was shipped disassembled. No notes on the bill of ladings said anything about gasoline smell. ABT Machine did say he smelled gasoline faintly. The motor took 5 days to get from Paducah KY to Holliston, MA.
At this point we are stalemate, John at Marine Engines is cursing and hurling wild insults at me and accusing me of faking an oil sample.
During this proves SEVERAL guys here and I are talking in the background and helping point me in the right direction, I will not call their names, but there are SEVERAL (by the way, THANKS for the help).
Paducah has a strong river boat industry, included are people who do engine failure annalists , I contacted one to help me find the problem. He had Corey pull two samples with him present, he is completing a report that will say the engines were not well cleaned in the assembly process.
I called marine Engines and tried to make nice, we did, but it goes no where. He is still accusing me of faking oil samples. I stated the oil samples show <1% fuel in it, lots of stuff that comes from machining processed, the second install looked good, there was 100% new parts (oil lines, oil coolers, oil filter head, oil filter, EVERYTHING was brand new and plumed correctly). I stated the oil showed no signs of burning, so there was no overheating of metal which would come from the oil being diluted to such an extent that it lost its ability to lubricate. He stated only two rod bearing were shot, and the rest of the crank looked good, I questioned him on this, he was ADAMENT.
I contacted GM Powertrain and opened a case number (GM 1430943443) and found they do not sell motors to him. I pinned him with this and he said he gets them from a third party who marinizes them and then sells them, but they have no manufacturers warranty (my invoice states a manufacturers warranty). The motors are a 454, Gen VI block, with 502 marine heads.
So there it is, we are at a stalemate, John at Marine Engines has said he does not care what experts I can get they will all be fraudulent and all I can do is buy anther motor from him, at a discount (I do give him credit, his offer is a significant discount). He has also stated if I sue him, which he says is my only other option, and then he will make it as expensive as possible. The threat was blatant.
So here is my conclusion and my question:
1800runsnew sells something other than a GM Powertrain engine as promised.
You get NO warranty from them.
They commit fraud on the boating community by promising, or at a minimum implying, a third party, reputable company offers the warranty when in fact they personally do, and will always find a way to avoid paying a warranty claim.
So now that all this is out there, what would YOU do?
P.S. – once the report from the engine failure is received I will post it with all the supporting documents.
some docs, more to come
I have bought 4 marine engines from this source.
2 big blocks.
2 small blocks.
Have never had any problems.
Do you have the words "F**K ME!" on your person somewhere? Everytime I turn around here, you've got a story on getting screwed! I'm not saying it isn't true, I'm just putting you up there as having some of the worst luck around!
Good luck, and hopefully you'll find a solution!
If you paid by CC call the CC company, he wont stand a chance of keeping your money with the docs you have
man, I feel it, I REALLY do....Originally Posted by jayhawk261
the odd part, generaly I NEVER have things go wrong in life, or at least almost never.... always have success on the hunting trips, at work, at play, bbq cooking costest, even when I go to play golf once every 10 years I generally get on a winning team (and that is horrible cause I SUCK at golf), but man, this boat thing is kicking my azz in a major way....
I am definately not used to having bad luck, I would say the bad luck has been around this boat and started in January of this year, before that everything went great.....
That was the part about buying new motors with GM warranties, so I could move to another boat without selling something I was afraid of.... no one wants to buy something the seller is afraid to run....
PS - there has only been 2 bad experiences, motors and paint, the rest have all been extrodinary...
Last edited by dean51267; 09-15-2006 at 05:39 PM.
Originally Posted by Wobble
yal, I know, I can get reimbursed, that is the easy part, the point of the discussion was to share the story.... if someone had told me he was cooking up stuff i nthe back yard I would not have bought from him.
I am sure he has sold some good motors, probably a bunch of them, but when the one deal goes south, well, this is what happens. Who would have guessed the engines were not cleaned, I sure would not have, but the critical nut is they are not GM motors, they are not warrantied, and when the schit does hit the fan, it will be all on you....
Please tell me that it is not in the profile if it is burn that f#$%ing thing to the ground
Jayhawk is right, you have had a lot of bad luck.
[QUOTE=jayhawk261]Do you have the words "F**K ME!" on your person somewhere? Everytime I turn around here, you've got a story on getting screwed! I'm not saying it isn't true, I'm just putting you up there as having some of the worst luck around!
LOL I was thinking the exact same thing!
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