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The problem with ethanol its that is virtually imposible to find.The goverment pushes car manufactures for alternatives fuel to wash their hands, cause there are only a couple of filling station in the whole country, and then exxon and all the big boys can have record earnings as we've seen.
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The oil companies buy most of it to mix 10% with gasoline. Production of ethanol isn't high enough yet. Probably never will be unless they develop the process to make it from cellulose. Making it from corn is just driving up food prices.
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Ethanol has many problems. First and foremost, ethanol the production of ethanol consumes more energy to produce than can be attained from burning it. Secondly, more pollution is created making it than it contributes to the reduction of emissions by burning it in a 10 - 15% mix. Third, because it contains less latent potential energy than petroleum fuels, it yields less power and decreases mileage, causing all of us to consume more than running straight gasoline. Lastly, the residual effects of tyeing up so much of corn resources, it's causing untold snowball effects all across the globe.
Ethanol makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. A decent article from the St. Pete Times yesterday: The feel-good fuel of the 21st century - ethanol - is losing its green luster. Inflation is out of control. World hunger is a growing concern once again. And in both cases, one of the main culprits is ethanol production. Even scientists now say ethanol does more harm than good in reducing global warming gases. To be more precise, tax-subsidized ethanol production from corn is the villain. As with many things Congress does, the implications of diverting so much of the nation's corn crop to ethanol production weren't fully thought out. That policy cast a stone into the global economic pond, and the ripples are still being felt. Food and energy prices are soaring for other reasons, too, though taking so much corn out of the food supply isn't the least of them. People both use corn for their food products and feed it to livestock. When corn is scarce, they turn to other grains for feed, including wheat. So the doubling of wheat prices in the past year traces back to ethanol. Of course, weather patterns and the high cost of petroleum products, from fuel to fertilizer, contribute to food inflation. But eliminating 4 percent of the world's grain production as the United States has done by diverting corn to ethanol production has an impact on market prices. It's one thing for Americans to pay more for a slice of pizza. For more vulnerable inhabitants in subsistence economies, a rise in food prices threatens their very ability to feed themselves properly. What have we gained with biofuels if the price is widespread starvation? Increased ethanol production in the United States won't really stem our dependence on foreign oil, anyway. Ethanol supplies aren't widely available to American motorists, and without huge tax subsidies the fuel wouldn't be competitively priced. Now scientific studies have even cast doubt on ethanol's environmental credentials, finding its use might actually generate more greenhouse gases. It is time for Congress to slow down the corn-based ethanol gravy train. If increased production comes at the expense of adequate nutrition for poor nations and the stability of the world economy, it will hardly be worth it. |
Ethanol may have it's purpose. However, the American Petroleum Industry ( api.com ) offer interesting concerns on their web-site.
The state of Hawaii has been there,done that, in their marine fuel. In fact, they appear to have legislated a reverse mandate that prevents Ethanol Blend Marine Fuel sales. Press releases discuss safety,engine problems,fuel tank deterioration and etc.. The common denominator between Hawaii and the American Petroleum Industry sounds very similar. Ethanol appears to draw moisture/water like a magnet is attracted to steel. The boat sits in the water with open fuel tank vents. High humidity is drawn in through the vents and phase separation is the next step. Once phase separation is complete,sludge occurs and if not drained,will cause further problems. As sludge is drained it must be disposed of....Where ? In summary, Ethanol appears to not be a good product for use in Marine Fuel applications. 87 octane and 100LL av gas w/ lube added, makes much more sense to me. |
Originally Posted by CcanDo
(Post 2465710)
Ethanol may have it's purpose. However, the American Petroleum Industry ( api.com ) offer interesting concerns on their web-site.
The state of Hawaii has been there,done that, in their marine fuel. In fact, they appear to have legislated a reverse mandate that prevents Ethanol Blend Marine Fuel sales. Press releases discuss safety,engine problems,fuel tank deterioration and etc.. The common denominator between Hawaii and the American Petroleum Industry sounds very similar. Ethanol appears to draw moisture/water like a magnet is attracted to steel. The boat sits in the water with open fuel tank vents. High humidity is drawn in through the vents and phase separation is the next step. Once phase separation is complete,sludge occurs and if not drained,will cause further problems. As sludge is drained it must be disposed of....Where ? In summary, Ethanol appears to not be a good product for use in Marine Fuel applications. 87 octane and 100LL av gas w/ lube added, makes much more sense to me. |
A lot of it's been said already, but i'll have a go also.
E85 contains something like 15% or 20% less energy than gasoline, so you burn more of it. Ethanol attracts water like a sponge, so fuel storage and filtration systems on board should be redesigned to deal with this. Ethanol production from corn is either a slight net loss in energy or a slight net gain, depending on which study you read. Ethanol from sugar cane is a different story, i have never read a study on it but it is my understanding that it is a far easier process and a large net energy gain. There are technologies out there to make ethanol from algae and from switchgrass, but these technologies are in their infancy and still very expensive. However, they should result in a large net energy gain once perfected. With a handful of sensors, a closed loop fuel injection system (currently only available on one marine engine, from indmar) and quite a bit of tuning time, engines can be set up to run on any mix from pure gas to E85 without any user intervention. I have a friend who does engine calibration, he has done work on this type of calibration. It's complicated, but not difficult with todays technology. Older fiberglass gas tanks use resin that will break down from contact with ethanol. Newer fiberglass tanks use a different resin and are compatible with ethanol. Same story with fuel hoses, if you run E10 (most of us have to now) make sure your fuel hose has the appropriate SAE markings on it, I believe it's SAE J1527, but that's totally off the top of my head so don't quote me on that. From a national policy standpoint, our best bet right now is to encourage DEVELOPEMENT of ethanol production, rather than actual ethanol production. Corn ethanol, not so good. sugar ethanol, good. switch grass or algae ethanol, may be good in the future. Problem is, we don't grow much sugar in the states (hawaii excluded). We're better off encouraging diesel vehicle sales and cranking up biodiesel production, mandating B10 or B20 at the pumps the same way E10 is mandated now. It takes more crude oil to make a gallon of diesel than it does to make a gallon of gas, so this would be far better energy policy. The problems with ethanol can all be overcome, but we're not there yet. Not time to dive in headfirst, but in the future it will be a great energy alternative. And if you want high octane, E85 is close to 105 octane and is cheaper than race gas. |
The bio-fuel industry in still in its infancy as far as economy of scale and which fuel will be the best option. Oil companies have been killing most of the synthetic/bio fuel development for a hundred years. Who knows what ideas have been supressed.
Lets get our options out there and find the best alternative. Even if corn isn't the best sugar/starch crop, advances in fermentation technologies is a good thing. Opinions will change about alternate fuels when gas hits 10.00 a gallon. |
No one should argue against developing alternative energy,alternative fuel included. Conversely,to automatically accept a product that is said to have safety issues,economic impact and envireomental concerns,not only appears naive,but irresponsible. Specifically,Ethanol Blend Fuel for Marine Engine use.
Logically,Legislature is not aware of problems and hazards associated with using Ethanol Blend in Marine Fuel. Otherwise,they would have excluded marine use from the mandate. However,as Hawaii has corrected their oversight,so can the remaining states. The resolve should be as simple as contacting the elected representatives and educating them about the urgent problem. |
Originally Posted by CcanDo
(Post 2465710)
In summary, Ethanol appears to not be a good product for use in Marine Fuel applications.
If you don't blend the ethanol with gasoline in the first place, then absorbing water doesn't cause any phase separation. On the other hand, gasoline is blended with ethanol at least in part to allow for better cold weather starts. Neet ethanol can be a better marine fuel than gasoline-ethanol blends as long as you are only operating in a warm climate or if the cold start problem is otherwise compensated for (which current EFI systems already largely do.) |
It manufacturing process isnt practical for its environmental benefit today, of course. That is because it is in its infancy. Its going to take several years to refine the way it is manufactured. Then its production will equal its environmental benefit.
Is its energy it contains measured by weight or volume? Why do top fuel nitro burning engines use alcohol with nitro and not high oct petrol race fuel? As far as us using it in marine application, we have to make changes as well. I find it hard to believe no one could make a water fuel separator that will work well for E85. Making the types of seals and other hardware that wont be harmed or dissolve isnt a big issue. I see resistance from some people on this alternative fuel topic. They are afraid of change or giving something new a chance. |
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