BAJA OL 650HP/ SABER 28 Gellner unlimited with konrad ace
I will tell all the people I run into at my friends marina's thats about 3 about there actions and to stay away. so if your out on the water and need a tow and they try this chit can you shoot them and tell the CG that they tried to pirate your boat.
The maritime salvage laws work.
The overwhelming percentage of craft-tonnage on the water is commercial. They are serviced by commercial salvors. These people are quite happy with the current system. As a fraction of a percentage point overall and a relatively unimportant facet of the marine world, recreational powerboaters don't even show up on the radar screens of the people who have influence over these things. And it's way beyond just US Federal laws- it's international maritime law. Most commercial registrations are non-US anyway.
Sea Tow operates in the margins.
They use the ignorance of these laws as a way to prey upon recreational boaters. They use the fact that the courts have ruled that the time pressures of a sinking boat do not present duress to the operator of a vessel when determinining whether or not to accept aid from a salvor.
Cutting up your SeaTow card is a futile exercise.
SeaTow monitors VHF for distress calls and Coast Guard communication. They come whether you have the card or not. It'll always be "we'll work it out at the docks, let's get you saved first".
Beating these guys is a matter of education. Knowing how they operate and knowing the law is the single most important way to keep from getting hosed. Knowing how your insurance handles these situations and what your coverage allows is very important.
Boater education is the key. Everyone reading this thread now knows about this- but how many others don't? If you want to help them and stick it to the SeaTow's, tell them.
The maritime salvage laws work.
The overwhelming percentage of craft-tonnage on the water is commercial. They are serviced by commercial salvors. These people are quite happy with the current system. As a fraction of a percentage point overall and a relatively unimportant facet of the marine world, recreational powerboaters don't even show up on the radar screens of the people who have influence over these things. And it's way beyond just US Federal laws- it's international maritime law. Most commercial registrations are non-US anyway.
Sea Tow operates in the margins.
They use the ignorance of these laws as a way to prey upon recreational boaters. They use the fact that the courts have ruled that the time pressures of a sinking boat do not present duress to the operator of a vessel when determinining whether or not to accept aid from a salvor.
Cutting up your SeaTow card is a futile exercise.
SeaTow monitors VHF for distress calls and Coast Guard communication. They come whether you have the card or not. It'll always be "we'll work it out at the docks, let's get you saved first".
Beating these guys is a matter of education. Knowing how they operate and knowing the law is the single most important way to keep from getting hosed. Knowing how your insurance handles these situations and what your coverage allows is very important.
Boater education is the key. Everyone reading this thread now knows about this- but how many others don't? If you want to help them and stick it to the SeaTow's, tell them.
Chris, in my short time here I've learned to listen and learn from your posts. With all due respect, then, I agree it is futile and possibly foolish to cut up your active SeaTow card, but don't you think it's MUCH more foolish to give them any FUTURE business? I say boycott them to, at least, attempt to get them back in line. As I've said, I'm aware (now) that all of their competition have like worded salvage information, but this particular situation seems outlandish.
Will my money hurt them? Probably not, but if this spreads...if OSO stuck together it might hurt a little. Isn't that the "power of OSO?"
Lastly, is it futile to attempt to get the maritime laws clarified or reasonably updated so the uniformed do not get bit in the arse? Is that a lost cause? Looking at how things are run, I guess so, but idealistically I hope it can change.
I mean this with all due respect, I know I'm the new guy here and have not come to troll or blather.
-James
Last edited by Apathetic; 06-26-2008 at 09:22 AM.
Reason: Edited to add my name since no one knows me here yet...
Not in our area...unless you are in danger. Sea Tow and Tow Boats US, got in their butts about stealing money out of their pockets. Marine Police, Dept. Of Natural Resources, not sure about Coast Guard, will call one of the towing services before they throw you a line.
43' Black Thunder, 39' Scorpion, 24' Empress, 10' Bonanza
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Sunkin
That's simply not the way maritime law reads. What SeaTow and others do is absolutely 100% legitimate and legal. Ethical is another story.
I was talking about the contract, agreement for the race? Leaving a boat to drift and someone else having to finish the tow? Having a person already being towed handed to you and then claiming salvage expenses? All of these seem to border on fraud or breach of contract. In maritime law, if the Coast Guard is towing a commercial fishing vessel back to port that was in danger of crashing on the rocks, but half way back a SeaTow vessel shows up and they let him finish the tow, SeaTow can claim salvage?
The maritime salvage laws work.
The overwhelming percentage of craft-tonnage on the water is commercial. They are serviced by commercial salvors. These people are quite happy with the current system. As a fraction of a percentage point overall and a relatively unimportant facet of the marine world, recreational powerboaters don't even show up on the radar screens of the people who have influence over these things. And it's way beyond just US Federal laws- it's international maritime law. Most commercial registrations are non-US anyway.
Sea Tow operates in the margins.
They use the ignorance of these laws as a way to prey upon recreational boaters. They use the fact that the courts have ruled that the time pressures of a sinking boat do not present duress to the operator of a vessel when determinining whether or not to accept aid from a salvor.
Cutting up your SeaTow card is a futile exercise.
SeaTow monitors VHF for distress calls and Coast Guard communication. They come whether you have the card or not. It'll always be "we'll work it out at the docks, let's get you saved first".
Beating these guys is a matter of education. Knowing how they operate and knowing the law is the single most important way to keep from getting hosed. Knowing how your insurance handles these situations and what your coverage allows is very important.
Boater education is the key. Everyone reading this thread now knows about this- but how many others don't? If you want to help them and stick it to the SeaTow's, tell them.
Chris,
You are correct in all you have said.
However, this issue is not about salvage law. This is about bringing Sea Tow to this event.
Having them stand up at the meeting and offer services and then not follow through with anything they said they would do for us. I/We trusted and defened them in the face of a bad situation and then they rolled us under the bus.
Yes the other guys offer the same serivce but after over 20 years of Coast Guard Service there is a reason I have and will continue to carry a Boat US card and do this based upon what I have witnessed around the country. We gave Sea Tow an opportunity to build a relationship and they stommped all over us.
Again this was not about salvage law it was about truth, honor, respect, and integrity. Saying what you are going to do and then doing what you said.
Do they really think we had thousands of T-shirts printed, plaques made at the last minute, we did this based upon the belief of thier word to us. Shame on us for trusting this company and its representatives.
So dropping your SEA TOW membership and aligning with another group is an action to gain awareness to this situation.
That's simply not the way maritime law reads. What SeaTow and others do is absolutely 100% legitimate and legal. Ethical is another story.
Our laws follow the reasonable standard and it is unreasonable to have a tow membership and have them screw you on the back end. The membership legal notes make it sound like you are covered unless it's a major problem. Not any reasonable person would read that statement and think twice. So, even if they are legally salvaging then they are committing fraud on the membership side of things.
I think they would go down in flames in court with a half way decent attorney.
In regards to a comment you made earlier about losing money on basic tows:
Sea Tow makes money in the mass number of members. I agree they might lose money if they have to tow you, but they make up for it in the rest of the members that never call. Just like AAA does.
Active Thunder 37' & other Factory boats, 13' Mini Hawk
If someone can create an abridged "this is what you need to know guide"; I'll pin it up as a new Thread in the Boating Safety Forum. We all need to know what the actual terms mean and what the consequences of each of those terms are.
Whatever it is that we come up with, it can't be a "Sea Tow sucks" narrative, but it can advise that their services are shady.
In a subsequent post on that thread, we'll link this one and the one from the past as "case studies."
I'd look forward to a post by Brad or Chris, or someone else in the know, on the subject.
__________________
Brian T.
Active Thunder Factory Rep.
Web: ActiveThunderBoats.com
Email: brian(a)activethunderboats.com
I may take our safety boat out and following him around all weekend and offer ever boat he comes on scene with a free tow compliments of GEICO and Mercury
but don't you think it's MUCH more foolish to give them any FUTURE business? -James
No, you're absolutely right not to give them another nickle. But SeaTow would still do very well without paid membership whatsoever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratickle
if the Coast Guard is towing a commercial fishing vessel back to port that was in danger of crashing on the rocks, but half way back a SeaTow vessel shows up and they let him finish the tow, SeaTow can claim salvage?
I know some on the subject but I'm not a maritime lawyer. But in this scenario, I believe they could and regularly do. It depends on the circumstances. If it's just a tow, then it's just a tow. If there are actions required on behalf of the salvor to prevent damage or demise of the craft, it's a salvage- ex: pumping the craft out, stopping a leak, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bcschoe
Having them stand up at the meeting and offer services and then not follow through with anything they said they would do for us. I/We trusted and defened them in the face of a bad situation and then they rolled us under the bus.
Brad- you're absolutely right. The group of SeaTow operators you were dealing with were certainly a bunch of unscrupulous cocksuckers. They probably had every intention of pulling this from the start- they had to know at least one boat would go over. One thing I would suggest in the future is a blanket contract between anyone you may have an agreement-for-services with. It would be signed by the contractor, the promoter and each individual racer. That way, when, for example, SeaTow asks for $8,000, you havd them a copy and say "sorry". It's ad that you can't take a person's word these days but not surprising, considering the "professional vulture" nature of these people. In fact, I don't know that I'd want an associative relationship with any of the operators in this business. In the case of Boat US, I believe they're all on the AAA model- primarily relying on contractors. Once you get to that point that it's no longer a tow, you're right back to the wild, wild West.
Quote:
Originally Posted by VetteLT193
Our laws follow the reasonable standard and it is unreasonable to have a tow membership and have them screw you on the back end. The membership legal notes make it sound like you are covered unless it's a major problem. Not any reasonable person would read that statement and think twice. So, even if they are legally salvaging then they are committing fraud on the membership side of things.
I think they would go down in flames in court with a half way decent attorney.
In regards to a comment you made earlier about losing money on basic tows:
Sea Tow makes money in the mass number of members. I agree they might lose money if they have to tow you, but they make up for it in the rest of the members that never call. Just like AAA does.
I have several close friends who are lawyers and one in particular who has been a partner in several business ventures. I hear a number of things from them when it's "just us"
"If you are a fan of fairness, don't become a lawyer"
"You go to court for a decision, not justice
"Being right has nothing to do with prevailing under the law
...and many more
The maritime law is written the way it is and hasn't changes much in very, very many years for good reason- it works for the vast majority of interested parties. There are predatory operators working in the margins, preying on pleasure boaters who have little or no knowledge of these laws or the operations of salvors. They applu their logic and their land-based paradigms and toss in a sens of honesty and fairness but in the end, they get boned hard. If you want to do a little research, Cornell Law has an excellent on-line law library. These salvage issues have been the topic of many appeals court and Supreme Court decisions over the years. Maritime law is pretty much bulletproof.
As far as the AAA analogy- AAA has no opportunity to charge you $8,000 if your car has a flat and it's raining really hard when they change it. Of course, SeaTow would like every boater to sign up and pay their membership- but more for the fact that they'll get a direct call instead of a random UHF hail for help. Unlike AAA that relies on a membership stream, salvors rely on high-dollar salvage operations. There's a reason Seatow exists where they do. if they wanted to be "real" marine salvors, they'd be out doing the big commercial work. Instead, they've found a very lucrative niche- it's high-reward with low risk and fairly low capital expenditure. They're simply skimming the cream found in a legality that was intended for and beneficial to an industry of an entirely different scale and economic.
Platinum Member
about there actions and to stay away. so if your out on the water and need a tow and they try this chit can you shoot them
Gold Member
Commercial Member
