Two answers, the price of $225 with all the bells and whistles was provided by AT earlier this week. I forwarded Pat, the owner of AT, an email from a friend of mine who lives in Europe and wanted to know if I thought the price he was thinking of paying for a Top Gun T/S was fair. I wanted to give hime some comparable prices from dealers here and for some other boats in that same length and from other custom builders. The price for the AT and the price for the Cigarettes both came from my research earlier this week.

As for not winning in F2, the AT factory doesn't really want to be involved much in racing. Thus, the only efforts for F2, and there was a 37AVH racing in SBI last year, have done been done by individual owners. The owners have not been full-time racers with the same level of experience, seat-time, money and resources as some of the other teams they have competed against. It would be interesting to see what a professional team with lots of time to devote and plenty of resources could do in F2.

As for the Cigarette versus the AT, that really is a personal choice. Both boats are really awesome. Plus, the Cigarette is the original for many people. I don't think one can go wrong with either boat.

rumor's have it that the fountains seem to be going awfully fast for stock 500's!

Thunder has the Harry Schoal bottom design and that is impressive. I have read a lot about this man and his products and it seems to be undeniably one of the best (and functional) designs on the market. I have not been in the Thunder, but I have been in several other Schoal designs and the performance and handling is perfect. To me, it's a win win situation, but I would lean towards the ones who treat me the best!

I am really enjoying the passion of ALL of those who have posted their input within this thread. However, it's easy to get emossional here...especially us AT owners. Even though I may be a little biassed (after all I am current/proud owner of a 32'AT), I want to attempt to be fair and balanced without sounding surreal(spelling?) or pretentious. 32Fever has brought up some very good points. Also in reference to what ApachePete was asking, I thought his question IS a very FAIR and VALID one....RACING! On another thread I was asking about price on a 32' hull/deck. Someone responded that there is all the R&D, engineering, testing, etc, etc, etc.....with all due respect....I thought that RACING is where all the R&D, etc, etc comes from...am I right or not??? I know without a doubt Cigarette and Apache comes from vast history of racing...years! The race course is the PROVING GROUNDS for most of these boats....speed/hull design, etc....and that's where Cigarette and Apache have their pleasure boat designs molded from. Cigarette and Apache are RACE PROVEN hull designs. So ApachePete brings up a very valid question to this debate...and I believe it IS fair to ask: WHERE does Active Thunder lay in all of this in the rhelm of Racing? How about Outer Limits as well?

Jesse (you change your username from ssherman?, or am I missing something, seems familiar)

Yup, I think the AT (based on my experience in, and playin around with my 32 Fever with 32 AT's (35 TS Fountain is more the same size, but probably actually faster hull than my 32), they do ride better in 3' plus on Lake MI and have an advantage, but if it lays down, those Fountains are hard to beat. NOt that Fountains ride bad, but the AT's do have what I'd call a much more solid feel to them.

I think that's why teams like Team Virgin clean house on rougher days (at least my limited watching/knowledge or racing I see that), so no reason why AT can't step up on the rougher days. I also think that the stepped hulls do wonders for improving speed on flatter water. Which also makes me wonder why the Cigs and At's do have a tougher time keeping up with the gold chain wearin' flat water speed demons.

However, it doesn't sound like AT is interested in racing. I also wonder how companies like Forumla have faired with their increase involvement. They really "kicked it up a notch" and wonder what the results have been for them. It could be, maybe it's just for bragging rights, and might not help the bottom line? I dunno.

many of the Cig folks must be in hibernation...LOL! I remember Spinetickler posting a lot on his new Cig. Haven't seen much lately....be nice to have feedback from those owners.

Mark

Apache,Cigarette,Race course feedback into Hull design. LOL where,when??Feedback ! Maybe into adding more laminate here ,or some changes in the Scantiling. If you believe they rushed back after a Race,Scrapped a Mold then built a new "Improved one"Thats Not true!(the only Mold they scrapped is the one in the water behind Cigarette the very first 28' it Stuck)

We are talking very ole times now! Ill give you their secret 24 Degrees 1/3 the Length (constant running surface) then converege the rest to a 35 Degree entry,now for the Strakes Nick the Plug builder there in those days Said too measure a Cuban Glassmans Shoe with all the glass hanging off it and that was the Width! (a Joke by the way)so they would not fall of the Plug Laying up the Mold.

Now for AT Pat Hired and Paid the best Guy in the business to Design His Bottom Nothing Guessed at here nothing! it works. Kinda akin to bringing Mr Kelly Johnson in to help with your Personal Jet. Just my .02

Don't kid yourself, Kevin Erim in the 37 AT Outlaw runs the hell out of that boat. He busted the hull up pretty good last year and I heard that AT fixed it up real nice for him and that boat will be back with SBI again this year chasing those foutains.

Kevin is no newby to running hard and fast, so I don't think someone else could get much more out of her. The problem is running an open cockpit boat against those canopy boats. You never feel the need to back off behind a canopy.

is it true the Kevin could walk away from every boat out there in rough water? i heard the only boats to beat him were the canopied Fountains, and the rumor is they are running awfully fast for a 500 efi setup. also, Kevins boat is an everyday 37 and the Fountains are completely race...true?

Steve1, Your points are well taken. I'm just stirin' the pot a little bit by just playing devil's advocate here. I know there are a lot more Cigarettes and Apaches out there and I have admit that I DON'T follow the racing circuit that closely. I just don't see or hear of many AT's out there on the racing circuit....or Outer Limits as well. I think the racing circuit is a good starting point...lots of exposure and perhaps it's a good idea to say a certain hull has been battle proven on the race circuit whether it needs it or not. Whether it's BS or not I think it's a positive move for any boat manufacturer's hull design to be seen racing out there. I just believe it's wise marketing strategy for any boat manufacturer. Now, on the otherside of the fence, I know AT now offers a LIFE TIME WARRANTY on their hulls starting with 2002....geeez,---I have to admit from any objective point of view that's a pretty GUTSY call...at least in my book.

Jesse James, you may get more favorable results than I did, but if you don't you better be wearin' diapers or better yet have a bathtub strapped to your #ss because when they tell you the price they want for a bare hull.....well,----boy, you better be hangin' on cuz you ain't gonna be makin' it....I say---you ain't gonna be makin' it to no bathroom in time son! :eek:

One other problem for any smaller company trying to have race boats out there-What if the guys racing happen to suck??? If you can't afford to hire a known quantity like Art Lilly or Benny Robertson to run your boats, then you can build the best damn boat in the world and never even come close to winning a race. Improper repairs, maintenance, prop selection, travel problems, you name it-any of these things can cause a loss or worse. If I was Pat and knew that at most there might be 3-4 race boats of mine out there I wouldn't say squat about racing until somebody got some wins. Since AT might only produce 20 37AVHs this year and Reggie will have 20 boats minimum competing in most races, how could you come out on top in that situation??