Well It is time for a change-Poker Runs and Racing
10-13-2008, 12:56 PM
#22
I disagree.......we don't need regulation. We need the event promoters to use common sense and the owners of the boats to be RESPONSIBLE and simply follow the rules of the event or be escorted from it through law enforcement if necessary. They are at all these events anyway.
If you put a speed limit in place and someone violates it and hurts themselves or another, the regulations will not stop the lawyers or tree huggers. The exposure will be the same. I'm sure SOTW did all they could to minimize their liability, how'd that turn out?
If you put a speed limit in place and someone violates it and hurts themselves or another, the regulations will not stop the lawyers or tree huggers. The exposure will be the same. I'm sure SOTW did all they could to minimize their liability, how'd that turn out?
10-13-2008, 01:34 PM
#23
Registered
Marc..
I can appreciate your comments as well as the oppinions of the other posts.
I remember my first PR and there was when I had my best time. I done a bit racing back in the 80's, done PR's since 1994. With out going into details, I got some experience in this subject also, but needles to say not as much as you or some others.
But... the Poker Runs totaly got away from the original concept.
I was there with Ohio Steel back in 1993. and Eddie K, at the Pier33/THunder Marine PR. (Lake Mich.) in 93 just as a visitor, 1994 an attendee. I was working on the boat installing the silant choise system till 4:00AM.. left my house at 8:00 Am feeling addreniline and like a little kid. I knew that I could not keep up with the big guys,, but also knew I can hold my own in 26' boat, even if I was back in the pack. The rules were different. No passing the passboat. Period untill they let you. Then the big guys took off, (had some fun for a while)and the rest of us followed.
No one was intimidated by some of the "big boys" They were all down to earth. Even Reggie at that time. The party was at the marina. Lunch at a marina.. Only the boaters and guests were around. Everyone had a super time,... didn't matter what you had as long as you ran and had a good time. We all did.
I did that run 3 years in a row. The last with an OL with Fiore ot the helm. The ole.. Cat with arneson drives boat. (I think Paul actually owned that boat) I can honestly say I miss those times as well as the APBA race circuit.
All that being said.. I had a thread about a different Poker Run a few months ago. NO INTEREST.
Now we got the big cats.. the big "v" 's and the race is on to be the first at lunch. The rest of the boating world is out. Why. ?/ I think the sport became a $ driven aganda for some of the clubs. Look at the Jax. FF run.. or Destin run.. A lot more smaller boats. and more attendees. Look at the PRA Sarasote run. Gino and the K cats racing. Organized by PRA
(A bit off subject here but I disagree with all who said PRA didn't know anything about the Fountains coming to .. well.. "play with the cats".. The helo's have to register their flight plan .. the Foauntains had the yellow numbers.. and look what Bill drives.. The start also "suggests" that the intent was known... .02)
I'm all for a different Poker Run and race circuit. I like to see the race boats at the PR's, as long as they are there to run not to race. (proper safety is a must) I like to see the big power houses. I think your comments are right in many ways. The organizers have to rethink the events and try to get more smaller and slower boats to attend. I don't have the answers.. but I few sugestions.
No passing the pace boats, untill allowed. Two pace boats. fast and slower. Faster boats away from the slower group and the pace boat control the speed.
May be a longer travel route for the faster boats to have everyone (most) get to the lunch and card stops more closely together.
This is the operative word. "TOGETHER"
The Poker Runs have to bring all the boater together in a fun event and not seperate the attendees.
I understand that some smaller boats will have a hard time in ceartain seas and conditions.
Let the boaters make that choise.
I can't wait to see a run when a 44' cat with 1500 sterlings and an old 24' "v" with a 350 merc. and Alpha 1 pull up the same time at lunch and help each other dock, smiling and saying that "this was a nice and fun run"
You never know.. the guy with the 24' could be the guy who has "his other boat is Bud Light"
To me.. that's what is all about.
We were joking with Eddie K. back in 93 about his drives .. painted "lemon yellow" and he said "you got to have a lot of confidence in your product being painted lemon yellow"
Cudos to him.
I can appreciate your comments as well as the oppinions of the other posts.
I remember my first PR and there was when I had my best time. I done a bit racing back in the 80's, done PR's since 1994. With out going into details, I got some experience in this subject also, but needles to say not as much as you or some others.
But... the Poker Runs totaly got away from the original concept.
I was there with Ohio Steel back in 1993. and Eddie K, at the Pier33/THunder Marine PR. (Lake Mich.) in 93 just as a visitor, 1994 an attendee. I was working on the boat installing the silant choise system till 4:00AM.. left my house at 8:00 Am feeling addreniline and like a little kid. I knew that I could not keep up with the big guys,, but also knew I can hold my own in 26' boat, even if I was back in the pack. The rules were different. No passing the passboat. Period untill they let you. Then the big guys took off, (had some fun for a while)and the rest of us followed.
No one was intimidated by some of the "big boys" They were all down to earth. Even Reggie at that time. The party was at the marina. Lunch at a marina.. Only the boaters and guests were around. Everyone had a super time,... didn't matter what you had as long as you ran and had a good time. We all did.
I did that run 3 years in a row. The last with an OL with Fiore ot the helm. The ole.. Cat with arneson drives boat. (I think Paul actually owned that boat) I can honestly say I miss those times as well as the APBA race circuit.
All that being said.. I had a thread about a different Poker Run a few months ago. NO INTEREST.
Now we got the big cats.. the big "v" 's and the race is on to be the first at lunch. The rest of the boating world is out. Why. ?/ I think the sport became a $ driven aganda for some of the clubs. Look at the Jax. FF run.. or Destin run.. A lot more smaller boats. and more attendees. Look at the PRA Sarasote run. Gino and the K cats racing. Organized by PRA
(A bit off subject here but I disagree with all who said PRA didn't know anything about the Fountains coming to .. well.. "play with the cats".. The helo's have to register their flight plan .. the Foauntains had the yellow numbers.. and look what Bill drives.. The start also "suggests" that the intent was known... .02)
I'm all for a different Poker Run and race circuit. I like to see the race boats at the PR's, as long as they are there to run not to race. (proper safety is a must) I like to see the big power houses. I think your comments are right in many ways. The organizers have to rethink the events and try to get more smaller and slower boats to attend. I don't have the answers.. but I few sugestions.
No passing the pace boats, untill allowed. Two pace boats. fast and slower. Faster boats away from the slower group and the pace boat control the speed.
May be a longer travel route for the faster boats to have everyone (most) get to the lunch and card stops more closely together.
This is the operative word. "TOGETHER"
The Poker Runs have to bring all the boater together in a fun event and not seperate the attendees.
I understand that some smaller boats will have a hard time in ceartain seas and conditions.
Let the boaters make that choise.
I can't wait to see a run when a 44' cat with 1500 sterlings and an old 24' "v" with a 350 merc. and Alpha 1 pull up the same time at lunch and help each other dock, smiling and saying that "this was a nice and fun run"
You never know.. the guy with the 24' could be the guy who has "his other boat is Bud Light"
To me.. that's what is all about.
We were joking with Eddie K. back in 93 about his drives .. painted "lemon yellow" and he said "you got to have a lot of confidence in your product being painted lemon yellow"
Cudos to him.
10-13-2008, 01:34 PM
#24
Here we go. I am not the best writer so please bear with me. I'm sure i'm all over the place.
I guess I will be the bad guy here. Looking at it from the other side. To limit boats to 110 MPH would not be a reasonable solution.
I believe there should be rules and guidelines with things taken into consideration. A. Where the runs are Ocean, bay or lake.
b. Number of boats. C. variety of boats and speed capabilities.
etc.
There have been quite a few accidents on poker runs over the past few years that were not the fastest boats. Look at the accident is Destin 2 years ago. It was i believe it was a 65 MPH Baja. He was jumping waves in the inlet for the camera, he was trimmed to the moon and basically driving beyond his capabilities. How many times have we heard of a guy with zero experience buying his first go fast boat without knowing the first thing about driving it.
I honestly feel it's safer in Gold Digger, Hammer Time, The Mercedes boat at 140 then a 70 MPH Baja with an unexperienced driver. I know that in any of these big cats at 110 MPH it's like standing still.
On the other hand I think 110 MPH is too fast for smaller cats or an overpowered V-bottom that should only be running 80 mph.
The guys that go on these runs that have the Outerlimits, MTI's, Nortechs, Skaters, Cigarettes, etc spend a lot of money on their boats. In fact for most of the runs, they are the majority of the boats. They don't spend the money they spend on buying the best of the best to have what may be an unfair limitation put on them. Maybe unfair is not the right word but why should a guy that puts big blower motors in a 30 foot boat, that is capable of running 110 mph (safetly or not) be able to run his boat at it's full capacity and others be limited to a 60% or 70% capacity?
What about water conditions? There have been runs, especially in Sarasota, that we could not see 90 MPH. At 80 MPH is way much more dangerous then running 130 or 140 on calm water.
As for the big fast guys should go racing. I raced for years. I have no interest in going back to being a racer. I think the faster guys should leave first. The slower guys leave after.
I think there should be guidelines set that are fair and reasonable for all. I feel there should be different starts for different size and different speed boats.
I think unexperienced boaters should have very strict guidelines.
I am not saying there should not be some speed restrictions, rules or guidelines, there should. The only thing is they can't be as simple as 110 MPH max. The guidelines should change as conditions and venues do.
If you were to say "all poker runs are limited to 110 MPH". First of all, I don't think many would abide by it, I also think most of the "Big guys" won't show up.
I know I'm going to hammered for this one but, I mainly use my boat on Poker runs. I didn't buy a boat with these motors, that run on $11.50 fuel, that the maintenance is more than a commercial jet to be limited to 110 MPH.
I have never had an accident or even a close call. i feel I'm pretty experienced in driving my boat at the speeds i drive it. I don't drive above my means. I feel if I'm far enough away from anyone else I should be able to drive my boat the way it was built to be driven. Nor have I been at any runs where there was an major incident. I feel better driving out front at 140 or 150 with Gold Digger, Hammer Time, Factory Billet, or any of the other "fast guys" (or at 130 with Cat Killer behind me
) then being bunched up in a group of boats limited to 100 mph where everyone is up everyone elses butt! I feel the More spread out the better.
I guess I will be the bad guy here. Looking at it from the other side. To limit boats to 110 MPH would not be a reasonable solution.
I believe there should be rules and guidelines with things taken into consideration. A. Where the runs are Ocean, bay or lake.
b. Number of boats. C. variety of boats and speed capabilities.
etc.
There have been quite a few accidents on poker runs over the past few years that were not the fastest boats. Look at the accident is Destin 2 years ago. It was i believe it was a 65 MPH Baja. He was jumping waves in the inlet for the camera, he was trimmed to the moon and basically driving beyond his capabilities. How many times have we heard of a guy with zero experience buying his first go fast boat without knowing the first thing about driving it.
I honestly feel it's safer in Gold Digger, Hammer Time, The Mercedes boat at 140 then a 70 MPH Baja with an unexperienced driver. I know that in any of these big cats at 110 MPH it's like standing still.
On the other hand I think 110 MPH is too fast for smaller cats or an overpowered V-bottom that should only be running 80 mph.
The guys that go on these runs that have the Outerlimits, MTI's, Nortechs, Skaters, Cigarettes, etc spend a lot of money on their boats. In fact for most of the runs, they are the majority of the boats. They don't spend the money they spend on buying the best of the best to have what may be an unfair limitation put on them. Maybe unfair is not the right word but why should a guy that puts big blower motors in a 30 foot boat, that is capable of running 110 mph (safetly or not) be able to run his boat at it's full capacity and others be limited to a 60% or 70% capacity?
What about water conditions? There have been runs, especially in Sarasota, that we could not see 90 MPH. At 80 MPH is way much more dangerous then running 130 or 140 on calm water.
As for the big fast guys should go racing. I raced for years. I have no interest in going back to being a racer. I think the faster guys should leave first. The slower guys leave after.
I think there should be guidelines set that are fair and reasonable for all. I feel there should be different starts for different size and different speed boats.
I think unexperienced boaters should have very strict guidelines.
I am not saying there should not be some speed restrictions, rules or guidelines, there should. The only thing is they can't be as simple as 110 MPH max. The guidelines should change as conditions and venues do.
If you were to say "all poker runs are limited to 110 MPH". First of all, I don't think many would abide by it, I also think most of the "Big guys" won't show up.
I know I'm going to hammered for this one but, I mainly use my boat on Poker runs. I didn't buy a boat with these motors, that run on $11.50 fuel, that the maintenance is more than a commercial jet to be limited to 110 MPH.
I have never had an accident or even a close call. i feel I'm pretty experienced in driving my boat at the speeds i drive it. I don't drive above my means. I feel if I'm far enough away from anyone else I should be able to drive my boat the way it was built to be driven. Nor have I been at any runs where there was an major incident. I feel better driving out front at 140 or 150 with Gold Digger, Hammer Time, Factory Billet, or any of the other "fast guys" (or at 130 with Cat Killer behind me
) then being bunched up in a group of boats limited to 100 mph where everyone is up everyone elses butt! I feel the More spread out the better.
10-13-2008, 01:46 PM
#25
Registered
Gino. I do agree with you.
I don't think a "speed limit" is the answer. How it's managed IS.
Larry took me out on an MTI a few months ago 133+ felt like it was on rails. (to bed I can't afford one"
I think the "big guys should be allowed to run in a "controled environment" IE: away from the pack.
I know you have your racing time and I trust you runing hard. You are also right some guys with deep pockets have no clue about drivinig a high performance boat. (BTW the boat in Destin was a Sunsation, I was there)
PR must be "managed" better.. that's my .02
I don't think a "speed limit" is the answer. How it's managed IS.
Larry took me out on an MTI a few months ago 133+ felt like it was on rails. (to bed I can't afford one"
I think the "big guys should be allowed to run in a "controled environment" IE: away from the pack.
I know you have your racing time and I trust you runing hard. You are also right some guys with deep pockets have no clue about drivinig a high performance boat. (BTW the boat in Destin was a Sunsation, I was there)
PR must be "managed" better.. that's my .02
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10-13-2008, 02:10 PM
#27
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I think setting a speed limit in a poker run of whatever speed would be like having a restrictor plate in NASCAR, be fun to watch from shore, but probably more dangerous than not having a speed limit, really it would be more along the lines of side by side racing wouldnt it?
10-13-2008, 02:17 PM
#28
Racer
Racer
Well said.
Regarding canopies at poker runs, I dont care where or when it is, if I were to flip my boat, I would always prefer it to be in a canopy boat. Even without a dive crew it is far safer to be protected by a properly constructed canopy with full time air and harnesses. You extract yourself if you survive. I have been over twice and I would say I wouldn't be here today if it were for a canopy.
Regarding canopies at poker runs, I dont care where or when it is, if I were to flip my boat, I would always prefer it to be in a canopy boat. Even without a dive crew it is far safer to be protected by a properly constructed canopy with full time air and harnesses. You extract yourself if you survive. I have been over twice and I would say I wouldn't be here today if it were for a canopy.
10-13-2008, 02:26 PM
#30
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I think setting a speed limit in a poker run of whatever speed would be like having a restrictor plate in NASCAR, be fun to watch from shore, but probably more dangerous than not having a speed limit, really it would be more along the lines of side by side racing wouldnt it?
No, restricting the speed in a poker run wuold be like telling people at a road rally, motorcylce ride, etc to obey the speed limit on the road since they are sharing it with people who are not involved in the event. Further poker runs aren't races...
Restricting horsepower or bracket racing in Racing is just that, restricted horsepower is like restrictor plate races at nascar, bracket racing is like bracket racing at the drag strip.
I'm more for restricted horsepower or equal motors at races then bracket racing.
