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  1. #101
    Racer Racer Ryan Beckley's Avatar
    My Boats:
    1987 24 Skater, 2006 30 Skater
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Sarasota, Florida, USA

    Angry what do you think of this?

    Go to the classifieds section of this board and go to boats for sale. Then go to Skater...............and you'll get a Liberator! is that right? It is advertised that way on that way too. I was contacted to buy this boat and was told it was better and faster than a Skater HA!! He said it had a small cabin in it too. If it has a cabin then it must not have any bulkheads in it like my 24. I would like to flip one of those over at 90 like I did my SKATER and see how pieces it is left in. MOST builders of copies build JUNK, some are ok, but very rarely are they as nice as origanals.

  2. #102
    Registered FunHome's Avatar
    My Boats:
    28ft Saber, 22 Velocity
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Kansas & LOTO
    Wow!! What a cool thread!!
    I thought the Velocity was a Malstrom(sp) with the bottom cut out and a allison bass boat put in?
    Or something like that?
    I won't say who, but I have drank a few beer's with a couple of guy's that have been around boat's for a long time, and it was cool to hear what all was copied and cut up and changed, and what never worked in the first place!

  3. #103
    Platinum Member Platinum Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    I said it earlier: "splashing" is wrong. I can only hope that the "original" designer/manufacturer aggresively litigates someone who splashes their product.

  4. #104
    BK is offline
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Cobra Marty -

    Since we were in a race to build the fastest race boats, our frequent tooling reasons were two-fold:

    1. We had to stay above the competition. Afterall, they were tooling as much as us.

    2. It helped to keep fresh models, and a strong selling point as to why not to buy a cheaper, outdated splash copy.

    Designs belong to the original builder. But if you sell a set of molds -- you are also selling the design that comes from those molds. You lose control of that particular design.
    For that reason, we never, ever sold a mold that even resembled the current designs.

    Funny you mention the molds that become obsolete.... Yes, there was a growing pile of EX-molds in our yard, and every year that pile grew and grew out by the creek. Probably close to $100,000 worth. A tidy sum if we had wanted to sell them. Some sat for years in the weather and warped and decayed. Finally, when we sold the company, the new owner didnt want anything to do with those molds, and paid to have the molds destroyed -- we'd never sell them to the public anyway, so the best option was destruction.

    But we learned that the ex-employee who was hired to remove them to the dump, did not! A very dirty deal. We now know he took at least one of these to a competitor and THEY built boats from them! (and worse, it was a mold that previously ceased to build good parts!) Those molds -- and the design -- belonged to the owner who purchased the design rights of Mirage. Nobody else. Something the owner will have to take care of.

  5. #105
    Neno the mind boggler VIP Member glassdave's Avatar
    My Boats:
    Batboat, 38 Scarab Thunder, 16 Sidewinder, 27 Magnum
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    toledo oh
    bk- just out of curiosity do you know any thing about these boats (see pic) i found it in the back of a local marina about a year ago and picked it up for running around our local river front. at the time i had no idea about the amount of spalashing that went on.i didnt even know what this thing was. after i researched mine alittle i found out it was known as one of the "91 freeway flyers" . it was built and titled as a 23.5' concord but i was told it was a copy of a mirage.

    payton- nice boat by the way.and there used to be one of those big 33 foot jet boats run'n around here a few years ago . . . looked like a huge hawiian, was kinda cool. us daycruiser guys gotta stick together
    Attached Images Attached Images

  6. #106
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    I have been watching this thread unfold, and decided I would have to add my .02. A copy of an original is just that “A copy” I personally never ever buy a copy of anything. If I want something and can’t afford a new “Original” I will look for a pre-owned version of the “Original”. I have a Skater and would never own a “Copy”. I might look for a pre-owned, or a smaller “New” Skater. But never a “Copy”. I would be embarrassed to own a copy! And that brings me to pose a question to all of the “Skater Copy” owners. When someone asks you “what kind of boat is that” I wonder how many times you have answered, or rather mumbled, “Skater”? I would bet, more then once! Why? I ask? Maybe embarrassment? My next point is in the case of these Cats; don’t you guys care about your own safety? Just because it looks like a Skater does not mean it is built like one. One of the reasons a Skater costs more money then the Copy, other then the obvious lack of cost of R&D and plug production is Skater only uses the best materials to build their boats. Their boat is not build to fit into a price point. The boat is built the right way, using only the best and strongest material, and then the price is fixed on the product. I can tell you I never think about the boat coming apart at high speed. It just won’t happen. The forces acting on a cat at high speed are tremendous. Having to think about one sponson deciding to part ways with the tunnel, or the top of the tunnel or bottom of the sponson delaminating is not a comforting thought. I know for a fact the new 32’ Skater went through many design phases, changes, and new plug and mold changes. Should someone be allowed to copy the boat? I think not! I know one thing for sure, if I made a copy of a Chevrolet Corvette, and labeled and sold it under the name of “Philmobile” it would not be long before the Lawyers and District Attorneys paid me a visit. The lack of business Sophistication, and the willingness of some people to support the thievery of these boats is the reason the thieves are still in business. Don’t support Forgery.

  7. #107
    Platinum Member Platinum Member Steve 1's Avatar
    My Boats:
    Slippery when wet!
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Beautiful Fort Lauderdale
    The Coast Guard Should step in the Fray, if one is an Outright Thief, Too Cheap to pay a competent Designer, Or Incapable of performing the necessary design work in house, Then No H.I.N Period. As they are the Final Line. And have the Finial say as to who builds what!!

    Best Regards

  8. #108
    Platinum Member Platinum Member
    My Boats:
    fuel injection, superchargers
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    PA and MD
    So the Coast Guard can control the H.I.N. Maybe now with technology we can shoot a picture of a boats bottom and represent it on the computer in 3D with wire frame technology and them when a munufacture applies for H.I.N.'s they can look thru a library of hulls and overlay them and see if there is a match or a near match and deny or issue HIN's.

  9. #109
    Registered tomcat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001

    As the Boss (Bruce Springsteen) said...

    You can't start a fire without a spark!

    Design is the spark. No matter how well you build it, you would have nothing without the original brainchild of the designer. But the idea without execution is also nothing, so the builder is often the midwife at the birth.

    It seems that the brains of designers are wired differently than the brains of builders. Success in business requires both, but the builders often end up running the show, and they may tend to minimize the importance of the original designer. You can find examples of this in every industry.

    So what is right? To use the example of music, if you steal a melody, you are a thief, no matter how much you dress it up with full orchestra and choir. You have robbed the original composer, and you should be required to pay royalties. Even if you only steal a few bars, and change (improve?) the rest of the song, the melody, and your theft, will be RECOGNIZABLE.

    What about the argument that splashing with improvements is part of the natural evolution of the industry and shrewd competition includes or requires the concept of stealing designs, that this is somehow the American Way? I will go along with this up to a certain point, again using the example of music.

    If a certain band or musician breaks out with a "new sound", there will soon be many sound-a-like bands. Nirvana "invents" grunge and opens the door for the "Seattle sound" and many other bands. The imitators are not breaking the law, sometimes they are even better composers and musicians than the original innovator. But as soon as they steal a melody, they have infringed on copyright.

    It seems as though the splashers are saying that they are only copying the "sound", often from other splashers, who copied the sound before them. The challenge is deciding where to draw the line between "sound" and "melody" in the field of boat-building. What is truly a unique design feature and what is not. Can you RECOGNIZE the unique melody?

    I just watched the movie "TRAINING DAY" with Denzel Washington as a crooked cop. His best line in the movie is, "It's not what you know, it's what you can prove!" You may know that a design was splashed, but can you prove it? Will the courts recognize the melody? If you have made the melody unrecognizable, did you splash or not? Is your new melody better or just different?

    One other observation, design can be evolutionary or revolutionary. Revolutionary design is an easily recognizable melody. Evolutionary design may be an improvement but may not be easy to recognize as a distinct melody. The tunnel hull was a revolution, easily recognized by all. How many other boat design changes in the last 40 years qualify as revolutionary?

    Right or wrong, it boils down to what you can recognize and prove is a unique design feature. Sounds like a legal nightmare.

  10. #110
    My Boats:
    97 41' Saber --Ancestral Spirit
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Kingsville----lake erie
    This whole thread reminds me of that Eddie Murphy movie---'Coming to America' ---where the father of Eddie's love interest is the owner of 'Mic Donalds' home of the 'Big Mic'. I LMAO year's ago watching that --and still do If they couldn't be inventive enough to come up with a new gig what the hell???
    Tomcat is right on with the music equation, Just like Coke and Pepsi both offer 'COLA' taste but art, taste, etc. is different--(Britney--YAWOO). What I'm saying is that Pepsi isn't using a red can with white lettering, and buying up old cans of coke to mix with there pepsi to cut cost. RIDING COAT TAILS What happens when those coat tails aren't there? ---sit and cry on the park bench until someone comes to there rescue. Half of me laughs at these people , the other half shakes my head (pity/anger).

    Now, after all that ---I hope to hell that Scarab didn't splash my hull!!!! I had Know idea that there were so many that had been done. Opened my eyes

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