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-   -   63' Bertram Possibly stuffed off SC??? (https://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/general-boating-discussion/222619-63-bertram-possibly-stuffed-off-sc.html)

Uncle Dave 01-18-2010 05:26 PM


Originally Posted by Steve 1 (Post 3026580)
Uncle I always use Sheet core so until the patterns get 100% it is"Fun" cutting a boat inside a boat exactly!! Now in production runs the suppliers will "Kit" the core-set for you in boxes the way you use it IE First piece on top.

Sounds like work - cubed.

UD

MidOcean 01-18-2010 06:09 PM

here is the Video
 
http://www.yachtforums.com/video.php?title=sunkbertram

nautdesign1 01-20-2010 01:20 PM


Originally Posted by Steve 1 (Post 3026553)
"Implication being unless you can really do it right, just use foam."

No with the linear's more care is needed In respect to Both Shop Practices and Material selection.

Uncle dave- Your friend Steve1 is spot on. Balsa is more tolerant of less than optimal bedding practices than the foams. This is one of the reasons (price being the primary one) that balsa is so popular. Just don’t let it get wet…

spk1 01-20-2010 10:40 PM


Originally Posted by Comanche3Six (Post 3025500)
An expensive endeavor any way you look at it. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. Bertram was always noted for tough boats.........Was that under different ownership?

http://www.bertram31.com/articles/tgiabertram.htm

this is before ferretti took ownership, back then both bertram and hatteras were battleships, I have seen both hit jetti rocks at 20-25 knots and be fully intact resting on the rocks. One was a 50 bertram 1990's model, that hit the rocks and sat fully intact, untill the tide came up and sank it, and the other a late 70's 53 hatteras hit the jetties in galveston, and powered its way to the yacht basin where it was lifted out. They definently do not make them like that anymore, hatteras nor bertram, Viking is still putting out a battleship, and a few of the custom guys build a hell of a boat, but in my opinion some of the larger corporate builders just arent getting it done.

Uncle Dave 01-20-2010 10:52 PM

Lets Start a New Thread.....
 

Originally Posted by nautdesign1 (Post 3027998)
Uncle dave- Your friend Steve1 is spot on. Balsa is more tolerant of less than optimal bedding practices than the foams. This is one of the reasons (price being the primary one) that balsa is so popular. Just don’t let it get wet…


What forums do you frequent that I can I go to , to get more info from?

I'm guessing by the use of the word "whilst" twice in one mail - you are British (I work with a bunch of Brits love those guys) Im in the TV/Film business - you?

Im absorbing the provided data, and would like to continue asking questions - but wish to do it in another thread so the bertram info doesnt become more contaminated with "core discussion."

I dont think with proper vac-bagging there is much danger of the balsa getting wet, yes any through hulls need to be treated very carefully.

Can you adress any possible other downsides foam MAY have?

Im curious to hear more fine details that adress T2x's comment (as Ive heard the same thing myself,) and would love to get some closure on it i/e flexing of the core material that leads to shrinkage (of more than ones wallett)

In line with you reminding us that F=ma if you could construct 2 boats , one of each material that weighed identically your explanation seems to imply that its simple issue of light always wins- (definitely preferable) and proper bonding technique combined with lightness lets them "Get away with it." - What else is at play here?

It seems like everything else, core choice is a series of tradeoffs you wich to build under rather than one is always right and one is always wrong.

Much like the Epoxy VS VE discussion- there are tradeoffs. Some VERY vehemently argued by some, and denied or downplayed by others.

I find many shops that build both foam and balsa boats still use balsa as much as foam- Im eager to learn more.

Can we start a new thread for this discussion? I said early on I was open to data and you guys have provided some good reading, but I need more......


UD

spk1 01-20-2010 10:56 PM


Originally Posted by tommymonza (Post 3026561)
The helm damage you see Dave is simply the hinged instrument console floating freely above the helm. That is a lightly connected area and most likely just broke free as the boat was sinking.
The only way that transom has that damage is because somebody was trying to tow it stern 1st. Boat ripped cleanly at the hawsepipes passing thru the coaming.

Your theory of water blowing out the transom does not work because the water would have to shoot up the companionway and thru the salon. and than back down the cockpit steps to the transom . As the Capture of the Princess Bride would say.
INCONTHEVIABLE:evilb:

Im not disagreeing with you on the transom blow out cause, but some of the larger sportfish do have an engine room access door, just under the stairs that lead down to the galley, the water would probably blow through that door and into the engine room and back before making its way up and through the salon, I didnt really pay attention to the access points on that 630, some didnt have the door, but I still believe even with out the door, water at a heavy force would break through the engine room bulk head,before heading up the stairs, most of it is just heavy insulation for sound, and not necessarily heavy water proof construction.

Sean 01-21-2010 02:12 PM


Originally Posted by wjb21ndtown (Post 3023389)
Just a could of quick points... Allegedly the seas were 4-6' where the boat sunk on the day in question, and the captain did SAY he was going approximately 24 knots, but there is speculation that he was going much faster. The owner wanted the boat delievered in a hurry, and the captain was trying to meet a dead-line. I know if I was in a hurry, behind schedule, and a disgruntled boat owner breathing down my neck, I would probably not drive a boat that can go 43 knots at a speed of 24...

been there, done that with a 42' sea ray delivery from LI to Charleston many years ago for an owner who was in a hurry.

long story short, we stuffed it into the back of a wave at about 8-10 knots in 6-8 ft seas. separated the deck from the hull with ease at the pulpit . the newly formed opening became a funnel until we surfed it into atlantic city on one engine... not one of my favorite days of boating.

wjb21ndtown 01-21-2010 04:07 PM


Originally Posted by Sean (Post 3028807)
been there, done that with a 42' sea ray delivery from LI to Charleston many years ago for an owner who was in a hurry.

long story short, we stuffed it into the back of a wave at about 8-10 knots in 6-8 ft seas. separated the deck from the hull with ease at the pulpit . the newly formed opening became a funnel until we surfed it into atlantic city on one engine... not one of my favorite days of boating.

That does sound like a bad day of boating! Customers want their boats delivered to meet ridiculous demands such as "we have guests meeting us at the dock at 4p.m.! Really??? You're not even going to get comfortable with the thing before you take your friends out in it? At that point the purchase sure seems to be more of a show piece than a wanted, desired piece of machinery that is going to get used by the owner.

It is sad to see how many great great boats sit full seasons with little to no use on them.

That said, your experience with the SeaRay sounds a lot like what I think happened to the Bertram here...

phragle 01-22-2010 01:02 AM

The bottom line here, is that this wasn't a race boat in race conditions, it was sport cruiser/fishboat in conditions it would normally encounter. Somebody, somewhere along the line phucked up. Will somebody ever be man enough to admit it... will somebody be paid off to quietly go away?? or will it turn into the eventual game of pin the tail on the donkey...

spk1 01-22-2010 01:51 AM

Im not sure if its been said yet, but I keep trying to figure the transom and shaft housing damage, and my best guess is that after the boat stuffed and sank, and Im thinking the original damage was probably not quite as catastrophic as the later pictures show, still a manufacturing defect for sure, but Id be almost certain that after the distress calls were sent out, a few salvage hunters, found the wreckage, and tryed to move it deliberately so they could take their time in the dismantle of a 1.8mm yachts equipment, The only real way I see that shaft housing and transom ripping off like that is from a tow vessel pulling the hell out of it.


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