Callan did some wind testing in Marathon too. I was talking about manufacturs not race teams I would believe that Victory team has they've spent more money racing than anyone. I can't imagine wind test a 30 foot baja? for what how fast is it possibly going to go? Yes I was talking about Yellowfin no drawings no computers....good running boat. How much does a wind tunnel cost anyway per hour, I think it's easier for some builders to mock up parts and test in the real world.
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Re: Let me be a bit naive....
Originally posted by JROMY Aren't all these designs able to be modeled and tested "in theory" electronically before they are built, which results in these radical designs? There is no way that a couple guys sit around, drink a few beers, and say "hey bob, why don't we throw a step here and a whooziwhatit there and build a severaly hundred thousand dollar boat"? Right??? Just curious. Again, my background is in aviation and there are certainly common aircraft out there with some funky looking packages that certainly upgrade the aerodynamics for greater speed, range, economy, etc. - that all work well and...were all computer designed. I guess one of the biggest factors that makes me ask this is the way old molds are so valuable and continue to pass from hand to hand. I mean, honestly, as great (and classic) as say, a 41 Apache mold is - why wouldn't someone just start from scratch rather than buy an old mold??? I actually did my thesis at Webb on step designs (don't ask me about it, I don't remember too much anymore ... too much drinking at powerboat races has killed off all those brain cells), but another problem with testing step designs is they don't scale very well. For instance, if you have very small steps in a boat, you can't scale them down accurately because they become too small and won't scale back up correctly. In the model we built for our thesis to test step configurations we had a huge step relatively speaking to try and avoid the scaling problems to some extent. Because we were only comparing different step configurations relative to each other, that wasn't a big problem. |
Food for thought:
Okay, so the general consensus, seems to be that most powerboat mfg's cannot, for one reason or another(probably cost and time) perform lengthy analysis on their boats. Does this translate into structure as well. I would hope, that in the least, some engineering is performed in the creation of these boats; Cad models, Finite element modeling, structural substantiation, running load cases, classical laminate theory, matrix analysis...Yes?/No? This is a minimum. Who decides on lay-up, material, fiber orientation, resin system, woven/knit/tow, heat range, bag pressure, cure cycle, coring, compression strength, peel strength, ultimate tensile strength, buckling resistance, crippling resistance? Are these factors or wishful thinking? Is it Marketing, the Builder, or the Engineer? (Or trial and error?) ...Questions I would love answered from some of the more popular builders. |
Originally posted by Baja Daze I would hope, that in the least, some engineering is performed in the creation of these boats; Cad models, Finite element modeling, structural substantiation, running load cases, classical laminate theory, matrix analysis...Yes?/No? This is a minimum. While it's not necessarilly required for personal powerboats to be designed to such standards (commercial craft are because they have to be), I'd be willing to bet most larger manufacturers (Baja, Donzi, Scarab, etc.) do design their craft to such standards for insurance purposes, in other words, their insurance companies want to be able to fall back on those known design rules in the case of litigation. That's not to say Finite Element Analysis can not be used, an in fact it is used on larger vessels instead of the rules these days, but again, many manufacturers probably do not because of cost. Stuff like laminate theory and coring and bag pressure are not really dealt with in terms of ship design. That's a material design consideration and would be done by someone else. Basically the guy designing the boat knows the material will have certain characteristics and it's someone else's job to know what needs to be done to make material with those characteristics. |
Thanks for the response, Beckles. That kind of confirmed my thoughts. It just seems to me that in the arena with which we, as performance boaters, are accustomed to some of the more stringent analysis is overlooked. Or maybe not, we just never hear about it.
Then there are those who fall back on the old adage, "This is just the way we've always done it." Sounds like you may be a Naval Architect or engineer. Ship design is a fascinating science. I wonder how much of it translates into our market. |
Originally posted by Beckles ...Stuff like laminate theory and coring and bag pressure are not really dealt with in terms of ship design. That's a material design consideration and would be done by someone else. Basically the guy designing the boat knows the material will have certain characteristics and it's someone else's job to know what needs to be done to make material with those characteristics. |
Originally posted by Baja Daze Thanks for the response, Beckles. That kind of confirmed my thoughts. It just seems to me that in the arena with which we, as performance boaters, are accustomed to some of the more stringent analysis is overlooked. Maybe it not, we just never hear about it. Sounds like you may be a Naval Architect or engineer. Ship design is a fascinating science. I wonder how much of it translates into our market. Note, I myself have been out of the boat and ship design business for seven years, but things don't change that fast in the industry and I have classmates who are still in it of course that I talk to. |
"Is it Marketing, the Builder, or the Engineer? (Or trial and error?) "
Nick in our small industry I would say a majority of it is Trail and Error. I have seen MANY performanc boats FALL APART that were built with the "LATEST and GREATEST" and I am not alking about small time race teams or builders. I've seen a few huge teams bring "NEW" boats to races and they fall apart. As corny as it sounds racing is the BEST proving ground in our industry. Just a few years ago a VERY well know company had to replace a race boat , becuase the composite company had convincedthem to build the race boat out of there "NEW BEST STUFF" well it fell apart. |
Originally posted by Baja Daze Very true. But for optimal, concurrent design and maximum efficient weight management, the materials must be carefully and deliberately chosen and oriented. The properties can change drastically with minor modifications to ply laminate schedule. It's best when M&P and design get along well. ;) Certainly there's innovation in materials, but that comes from the materials companies, and then they tell the powerboat companies "hey, we've got this new stuff, it's 20% stronger and 25% lighter, here's the specs." ... fact of the matter is most powerboat companies probably wouldn't use it anyway unless it cost the same or less. It's not like the powerboat makers are calling up the materials companies and saying "We need some stuff that's stronger and lighter, we'll pay for you to develop it and pay more for it." ... after all, such materials already exist (kevlar and carbon fiber) but are usually too expensive already. |
Ryan, thanks bud. That's what I was thinking, too. We've seen that scenario too many times.
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