Shogren on Used Boats: "Be prepared for reality."
03-23-2011, 07:37 PM
#41
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the performance boat market clientele is shrinking every year. most people don't want or can't afford a fast boat anymore, that's why center consoles are becoming more popular. People who build stuff in their garages and like the older boats are becoming fewer also. prices will drop even more in the next couple of years
03-23-2011, 07:53 PM
#42
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+1, Does it suprise me that a dealer is trying to get people to accept lower offers on the premise of "reality" so that he can pad his own pocket, nope. Piss poor article IMO Trulio and very disrespectful, curious how much Shogren had to pay it. I'm sure you guys talk chit about boat owners all day, but no need to write an article about it and publish it on this site.
Not everyone pisses away hours every day looking for bottom prices. When a wealthy buyer finds something they want they will buy it, period. I helped someone last year overpay for a houseboat. Time is money, they didn't feel like shopping for another month and they certainly didn't enjoy dicking with dealers or serveyors or the hour and half driving trips to go see a boat without driving away in it.
Not everyone pisses away hours every day looking for bottom prices. When a wealthy buyer finds something they want they will buy it, period. I helped someone last year overpay for a houseboat. Time is money, they didn't feel like shopping for another month and they certainly didn't enjoy dicking with dealers or serveyors or the hour and half driving trips to go see a boat without driving away in it.
03-23-2011, 08:04 PM
#43
Very well put.
I, like Scott, conduct a luxury item business (custom pool construction). There' no differences in the comparisons here on the performance boats or any boat and a custom pool builder or a motorhome dealership. Except that I didn't have to pay for a bunch of inventory losing value annually. I construct on a per contract basis.
I've told buyers exactly this same thing I quoted Scott on since the end of 2008. My costs on building materials (rebar, concrete, bullnosed brick and pool tiles, etc...) has raised several times since then and my margin since then has tanked.
I looked for almost a year before offering a contract on a performance sport cruiser. It wasn't truly the most favored boat I wanted but I had to be practical, a cash purchase was a must. If I couldn't get a 700+ score financed on a new pool contruction loan at least a half dozen times last year why would it be different on a boat. And, equally, I was totally unwilling to take on any note for the boat purchase.
Selling pools has been the same, target the higher end neighborhoods, cut your markup to the bone, and perform your services for the love of the sport and not for addtional profitability. All business owners know pretty much what it takes to keep the company in the game without risking going under.
Pool buyers also know that the pool loses value bigtime and only helps for a quicker resell when they relocate.
Once we business owners and our customer base realize these things it's somewhat easier to close our deals.
See ya,
Kelly
I, like Scott, conduct a luxury item business (custom pool construction). There' no differences in the comparisons here on the performance boats or any boat and a custom pool builder or a motorhome dealership. Except that I didn't have to pay for a bunch of inventory losing value annually. I construct on a per contract basis.
I've told buyers exactly this same thing I quoted Scott on since the end of 2008. My costs on building materials (rebar, concrete, bullnosed brick and pool tiles, etc...) has raised several times since then and my margin since then has tanked.
I looked for almost a year before offering a contract on a performance sport cruiser. It wasn't truly the most favored boat I wanted but I had to be practical, a cash purchase was a must. If I couldn't get a 700+ score financed on a new pool contruction loan at least a half dozen times last year why would it be different on a boat. And, equally, I was totally unwilling to take on any note for the boat purchase.
Selling pools has been the same, target the higher end neighborhoods, cut your markup to the bone, and perform your services for the love of the sport and not for addtional profitability. All business owners know pretty much what it takes to keep the company in the game without risking going under.
Pool buyers also know that the pool loses value bigtime and only helps for a quicker resell when they relocate.
Once we business owners and our customer base realize these things it's somewhat easier to close our deals.
See ya,
Kelly
A company I used to do fire-ups for (The Pool People, Inc) built 2500 pools a year in South FL.........2010 40 pools finished for the year! They built for all of the regional and national builders WCI, Pulte, Toll Brothers and when new construction halted so did they!
In the boom they finished 10 pools a day.......blue water go swimming get your final check! 60 trucks on the road, 8-10 superintendents making 75K a year+++. It was insanity!
03-23-2011, 08:26 PM
#44
See a boat traded in for $35k, hey, it's a bad market, be realistic. The boat is barely washed up, and now it's a $52k boat. NADA and other values only apply when they tell you what low book is, wholesale. When you go to trade, those numbers become meaningless.
In the performance market, at some point, the boats available to buy used has to dry up. Look at the age of boats many people have on this site alone. There aren't nearly enough new boats sold to replenish the used demand 5 to 10 years out. So new prices go sky high, and eventually, used prices will as well, unless you;re trading or selling. It has to be a hard sell for a new $400k boat when a 3 year-old version is selling for half, or less.
03-23-2011, 09:10 PM
#45
Registered
the performance boat market clientele is shrinking every year. most people don't want or can't afford a fast boat anymore, that's why center consoles are becoming more popular. People who build stuff in their garages and like the older boats are becoming fewer also. prices will drop even more in the next couple of years
Every time I look what I want keeps getting cheaper,so I am going to agree.
03-23-2011, 09:25 PM
#46
It's true for sure. But so is the reverse. Anyone's that been in the car business know where their bread and butter is for car sales.
See a boat traded in for $35k, hey, it's a bad market, be realistic. The boat is barely washed up, and now it's a $52k boat. NADA and other values only apply when they tell you what low book is, wholesale. When you go to trade, those numbers become meaningless.
In the performance market, at some point, the boats available to buy used has to dry up. Look at the age of boats many people have on this site alone. There aren't nearly enough new boats sold to replenish the used demand 5 to 10 years out. So new prices go sky high, and eventually, used prices will as well, unless you;re trading or selling. It has to be a hard sell for a new $400k boat when a 3 year-old version is selling for half, or less.
See a boat traded in for $35k, hey, it's a bad market, be realistic. The boat is barely washed up, and now it's a $52k boat. NADA and other values only apply when they tell you what low book is, wholesale. When you go to trade, those numbers become meaningless.
In the performance market, at some point, the boats available to buy used has to dry up. Look at the age of boats many people have on this site alone. There aren't nearly enough new boats sold to replenish the used demand 5 to 10 years out. So new prices go sky high, and eventually, used prices will as well, unless you;re trading or selling. It has to be a hard sell for a new $400k boat when a 3 year-old version is selling for half, or less.
B. Performance boats are a small segment of the "boat market." Even in good times a big dealer like Marine Max wouldn't even take a go fast on trade, rather send out a local Hi-Perf dealer to line up the trade deal with the full intention of letting them take the boat directly. You can probably trade a Boston Whaler/smaller Sea Ray on any type of boat, get into the Hi-Perf and suddenly you have an oddball boat.
C. Buyers are waining so the "pent up" demand will dwindle over the years. In the sportfish market many long time, multiple new boat owners are simply not re-upping for another one! The dealers are dumbfounded how a guy that bought 5 new sportfishes in 15 years is simply not buying/building another after the beating they took on the last one. I work for a guy that has had a dozen or so big boats, his last Viking took over a year to sell (for 100K less than he ever dreamed of taking) and he is going to replace it with a 30-35 center console. Doesn't want the big boat, the capt, the maintenance or the 10K fuel bills! I think go fast boats will have the same issue.
D. Next generation is lost.....Toyota just did a study and found out the 16-22 year olds are more interested in smart phones and video games than CARS! If Toyota can't get kids interested in cars, what chance do gas guzzling boats that can be used a few months a year have? Harley Davidson has the issue as well........next generation after the baby boomers are simply not interested.
Boats in general are dead to 80% of the USA simply due to locale (lack or water or climate). FL, TX type areas will always be hot for the boat market but the rest of the USA it is a part time gig at best.
Many issues face the industry outside of the price of a new one. Heck if you had 400K to spend on ONE new boat look at all the boats you could buy with that same 400K!
03-24-2011, 12:00 AM
#47
Registered
This post is making reality just to sad for me.
First let me say I would not use NADA for anything but a laugh. At least not as a seller. Anything over 10 years old and you might as well give the boat away according to them.
Always had a dream of buying classic boats that are sitting in the weeds and bring them back to life and maybe make a small living at it at the same time. The last year has been tough on the dream.
I’m a shopper. I look for unique forgotten classics at giveaway prices in pretty much any condition. It must have everything that is irreplaceable so not to spend big money on stupid little things but that’s about it. I make lists of what I need. Hunt for deals and then hunt for more deals. I do about everything myself. Motors, paint, interior and my “over head” is what the wife and kids call home. Been doing this for a few years now on the side. Mostly for myself to have a new toy or project to play with. I find taking care of boats is not nearly as fun as building them. That and the wife says it keeps me out of the bars. lol Where I live has a good selection of forgotten hulls. Most cases I could pick what I wanted to save and when eBay first came around it made things real easy and cheap. Never really paid attention to the “books” so to speak. I always knew they were paid for so if I was broke there was no payments or a burden and when I let them go I never felt like I lost money. Then………
After years of doing this I did keep books on everything that came in and out of the “business” for a couple of the most recent restores. My restores are not over the top. The main goal is to get it back to new/original as possible with maybe a couple upgrades that most would want. The numbers are not looking good. What I’m being offered over the last couple years would not cover the cost of doing it.
One, asking 6 grand for it. Let’s just take out that it has a 454, built strong but not over done and a Volvo 280T outdrive with all new hydraulics.
454 = junk (like real junkyard junk motors) on eBay for 1500.00. Want something like the motor that’s in it, closer to 3 grand easy. 11” flywheel balanced for a 454 and matching rebuilt Volvo 280 bell housing = $500+ easy. Perfect Volvo 280 T. The one with full trim, all new lines and fittings, rams rebuilt and good working Mercruiser trim pump to drive it = $1500.00 but IMHO closer to $2000. So lets add this up …….anywhere from 3500 to 5500 in parts alone in the a$$ of this boat. So I guess the new paint, dash, wiring, trailer redone, the f_in SS screws will cost you a fortune
…..is not worth the other 5 to 2500??? The market sucks! I’m just glad that I’m not upside down in any of them sitting in the yard or it would be time to start loosing some money and closing up shop. So I cant sell and I‘m not giving away. I have to sit. The biggest problem with that is I cant just keep stacking up restored boats in the back yard even if they are paid for.
The funny thing is I just got done watching Desert auction kings. They have a classic car junkyard in LV and just started building cars out of their junkyard. The last few shows they barley broke even on their builds and they have a classic junkyard in their backyard and everything is for free. I guess it could be worse.
First let me say I would not use NADA for anything but a laugh. At least not as a seller. Anything over 10 years old and you might as well give the boat away according to them.
Always had a dream of buying classic boats that are sitting in the weeds and bring them back to life and maybe make a small living at it at the same time. The last year has been tough on the dream.
I’m a shopper. I look for unique forgotten classics at giveaway prices in pretty much any condition. It must have everything that is irreplaceable so not to spend big money on stupid little things but that’s about it. I make lists of what I need. Hunt for deals and then hunt for more deals. I do about everything myself. Motors, paint, interior and my “over head” is what the wife and kids call home. Been doing this for a few years now on the side. Mostly for myself to have a new toy or project to play with. I find taking care of boats is not nearly as fun as building them. That and the wife says it keeps me out of the bars. lol Where I live has a good selection of forgotten hulls. Most cases I could pick what I wanted to save and when eBay first came around it made things real easy and cheap. Never really paid attention to the “books” so to speak. I always knew they were paid for so if I was broke there was no payments or a burden and when I let them go I never felt like I lost money. Then………
After years of doing this I did keep books on everything that came in and out of the “business” for a couple of the most recent restores. My restores are not over the top. The main goal is to get it back to new/original as possible with maybe a couple upgrades that most would want. The numbers are not looking good. What I’m being offered over the last couple years would not cover the cost of doing it.
One, asking 6 grand for it. Let’s just take out that it has a 454, built strong but not over done and a Volvo 280T outdrive with all new hydraulics.
454 = junk (like real junkyard junk motors) on eBay for 1500.00. Want something like the motor that’s in it, closer to 3 grand easy. 11” flywheel balanced for a 454 and matching rebuilt Volvo 280 bell housing = $500+ easy. Perfect Volvo 280 T. The one with full trim, all new lines and fittings, rams rebuilt and good working Mercruiser trim pump to drive it = $1500.00 but IMHO closer to $2000. So lets add this up …….anywhere from 3500 to 5500 in parts alone in the a$$ of this boat. So I guess the new paint, dash, wiring, trailer redone, the f_in SS screws will cost you a fortune
…..is not worth the other 5 to 2500??? The market sucks! I’m just glad that I’m not upside down in any of them sitting in the yard or it would be time to start loosing some money and closing up shop. So I cant sell and I‘m not giving away. I have to sit. The biggest problem with that is I cant just keep stacking up restored boats in the back yard even if they are paid for.
The funny thing is I just got done watching Desert auction kings. They have a classic car junkyard in LV and just started building cars out of their junkyard. The last few shows they barley broke even on their builds and they have a classic junkyard in their backyard and everything is for free. I guess it could be worse.
03-24-2011, 07:04 AM
#48
the performance boat market clientele is shrinking every year. most people don't want or can't afford a fast boat anymore, that's why center consoles are becoming more popular. People who build stuff in their garages and like the older boats are becoming fewer also. prices will drop even more in the next couple of years
Have you read the last few posts? Several have mentioned "dreams" "wished for" "always wanted" etc. Let me tell you people, nobody except for Mexican immigrant kids do any of that kind of thinking anymore. The rich and middle class pander to their childrens' yammering for instant gratification so fast it makes your head swim. I won't even let my sister in law babysit our kids because all she will do is break out her iPhone or net flix or whatever (she has numerous sources) and watch a movie with them. They are so wealthy (he is CEO of a fortune 500) they buy mountains of toys every week. How do I know? Because we have become the garbage dump receiving boxes of every imaginable type of flashing/talking/singing/playing/dancing noise maker toy that they just discard. Our childrens rooms are becoming strewn with these toys that I have a tough time getting rid of because my wife says "but Michelle gave them to us".
Buying a boat, a house, or even a decent car, unless you are wealthy or have savings requires forthought and planning, and most importantly, YEARNING. I submit, nobody is being trained to yearn for anything anymore, especially something that is expensive, an effort to maintain, and is a depreciating asset in these days of instant gratification behind a far cheaper and easier to use computer screen, iPad or iPhone screen, or TV screen. The indoor screen has won the battle over the outdoors. Screens are promoted as if they are the bread and butter of everyday life. Can you go anywhere that doesn't have a TV playing in the background? Even the gas pumps and Walmart checkouts have screens that play video ads to us now! It is easy to push screens on people and America's children are more obese than ever.
Want to sell boats? Promote healthy outdoor living. Deemphasize the screen.
Last edited by On Time; 03-24-2011 at 07:18 AM.
03-24-2011, 07:19 AM
#49
Charter Member
Charter Member
This is the trend. Kids today, the potential new boat buyers, have no patience. They do not yearn for anything. TV, video games, internet porn, and high calorie cheap fast food have created the most instant gratification generation the world has ever known. This and noise making electronic toys is a big factor in todays "attention deficit disorder" which was unknown a generation ago.
Have you read the last few posts? Several have mentioned "dreams" "wished for" "always wanted" etc. Let me tell you people, nobody except for Mexican immigrant kids do any of that kind of thinking anymore. The rich and middle class pander to their childrens' yammering for instant gratification so fast it makes your head swim. I won't even let my sister in law babysit our kids because all she will do is break out her iPhone or net flix or whatever (she has numerous sources) and watch a movie with them. They are so wealthy (he is CEO of a fortune 500) they buy mountains of toys every week. How do I know? Because we have become the garbage dump receiving boxes of every imaginable type of flashing/talking/singing/playing/dancing noise maker toy that they just discard. Our childrens rooms are becoming strewn with these toys that I have a tough time getting rid of because my wife says "but Michelle gave them to us".
Buying a boat, a house, or even a decent car, unless you are wealthy or have savings requires forthought and planning, and most importantly, YEARNING. I submit, nobody is being trained to yearn for anything anymore, especially something that is expensive, an effort to maintain, and is a depreciating asset in these days of instant gratification behind a far cheaper and easier to use computer screen, iPad or iPhone screen, or TV screen. The indoor screen has won the battle over the outdoors. Screens are promoted as if they are the bread and butter of everyday life. Can you go anywhere that doesn't have a TV playing in the backgroud? Even the gas pumps and Walmart checkouts have screens that play video ads to us now! It is easy to push screens on people and America's children are more obese than ever.
Want to sell boats? Promote healthy outdoor living. Deemphasize the screen.
Have you read the last few posts? Several have mentioned "dreams" "wished for" "always wanted" etc. Let me tell you people, nobody except for Mexican immigrant kids do any of that kind of thinking anymore. The rich and middle class pander to their childrens' yammering for instant gratification so fast it makes your head swim. I won't even let my sister in law babysit our kids because all she will do is break out her iPhone or net flix or whatever (she has numerous sources) and watch a movie with them. They are so wealthy (he is CEO of a fortune 500) they buy mountains of toys every week. How do I know? Because we have become the garbage dump receiving boxes of every imaginable type of flashing/talking/singing/playing/dancing noise maker toy that they just discard. Our childrens rooms are becoming strewn with these toys that I have a tough time getting rid of because my wife says "but Michelle gave them to us".
Buying a boat, a house, or even a decent car, unless you are wealthy or have savings requires forthought and planning, and most importantly, YEARNING. I submit, nobody is being trained to yearn for anything anymore, especially something that is expensive, an effort to maintain, and is a depreciating asset in these days of instant gratification behind a far cheaper and easier to use computer screen, iPad or iPhone screen, or TV screen. The indoor screen has won the battle over the outdoors. Screens are promoted as if they are the bread and butter of everyday life. Can you go anywhere that doesn't have a TV playing in the backgroud? Even the gas pumps and Walmart checkouts have screens that play video ads to us now! It is easy to push screens on people and America's children are more obese than ever.
Want to sell boats? Promote healthy outdoor living. Deemphasize the screen.
Dean
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03-24-2011, 08:25 AM
#50
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I agree with the TV thing. As I read this, there is an IPad acc. Ad right under it. 
The other problem is, everything FUN today has consequences. I take my boat out, threatened by the popo about noise or DWI while sitting at the cove or speeding, wrekless driving, fines for fuel spills, making wakes, radio too loud ALRIGHT! Enough! You win. The next generation will sit on their azzes getting fat and do nothing! I get a $100 ticket and I laugh. Just glad there are no points or jail time any more. I can't blame anyone to be afraid to go outside and do anything anymore. Wayyyy too much risk to have fun any more. I talk about this my friends all the time. Every time some body gets pulled over, they threaten to sell the boat because they are tired of all the fees and fuel then an $$$$ expensive ticket on top of it all.
NOW! The boats we love are worthless because of all that. Thank you lawyers! Well, I refuse to give up. If it was easy it wouldn't be cool. See you diehards on the water. 
The other problem is, everything FUN today has consequences. I take my boat out, threatened by the popo about noise or DWI while sitting at the cove or speeding, wrekless driving, fines for fuel spills, making wakes, radio too loud ALRIGHT! Enough! You win. The next generation will sit on their azzes getting fat and do nothing! I get a $100 ticket and I laugh. Just glad there are no points or jail time any more. I can't blame anyone to be afraid to go outside and do anything anymore. Wayyyy too much risk to have fun any more. I talk about this my friends all the time. Every time some body gets pulled over, they threaten to sell the boat because they are tired of all the fees and fuel then an $$$$ expensive ticket on top of it all.
NOW! The boats we love are worthless because of all that. Thank you lawyers! Well, I refuse to give up. If it was easy it wouldn't be cool. See you diehards on the water.
