Rich Luhrs Commentary: Endurance Presents a “New Model" for Offshore Racing
10-12-2011, 09:42 AM
#101
Registered
Ed,,
How many of the new guys could smoke AJ, Parnelli or Mario in a Sprint car on Dirt
not many am sure it,, if any of them could,, then or now.
You're talking two different racing types,, two diffrent types of cars.
How many of the New guys even know how to set up a race car,, let alone build one.
a few years from now the "new guys" then will smoke the old new guys from today
nothing wrong with running laps along the beach ,, but if your going to call it offshore racing,, then make them run a lap off shore.. have the best of both worlds of racing.
I enjoy all racing and seen most inperson
thank you
Jim\
How many of the new guys could smoke AJ, Parnelli or Mario in a Sprint car on Dirt
not many am sure it,, if any of them could,, then or now.
You're talking two different racing types,, two diffrent types of cars.
How many of the New guys even know how to set up a race car,, let alone build one.
a few years from now the "new guys" then will smoke the old new guys from today
nothing wrong with running laps along the beach ,, but if your going to call it offshore racing,, then make them run a lap off shore.. have the best of both worlds of racing.
I enjoy all racing and seen most inperson
thank you
Jim\
I'd take Tony Stewart against any of the old timers any day.
ed
10-12-2011, 09:43 AM
#102
Correspondent
CorrespondentThread Starter
Matt:
None of the above is addressing the point. Peter Hledin ( whose products I steadfastly endorse) built boats back when the courses were 150 miles long and ran outside the reef at Key West...He also built boats when they raced on the Great Lakes as compared to Lake Winnepesaukee. Certainly he has taken those lessons to heart and builds accordingly. On the other hand your point about stresses increasing exponentially as speeds increase certainly explains why damn near any laminate will disintegrate at a specific (unneccesary) speed. However, the point is if you put a hull on a 150-250 mile course in big seas (where an Offshore race boat belongs) speeds are naturally reduced due to fuel load, engine durability, and simple mother nature. You don't need tricky rules, multiple classes, GPS thingamabobs, exotic powerplants, or much of anything outside of skill, setup, personal conditioning and the true desire to compete. A $75,000 paint job won't get you a thing, your Porsche....means nothing, and the more hp you try and cram into your mega hull the shorter your engine's life span. It is the perfect self leveling playing field. Most of the major successful car/motorcycle/boat racing organizations have limited speeds in one way or the other....to prevent even the most sophisticated designs from exceeding the limits of adhesion, safety cells, and human organ parameters. Yet Offshore has ignored all of this in favor of "stadium racing" and "shootouts", wherein oversized hulls with obscene HP are "displayed" at speeds well over the limits stated above (risking and , too often, losing lives in the process) in spite of the fact that none of this blowviated hardware can make it from Miami to Nassau or around Long Island (the birthplaces of Offshore racing). I agree that helicopters and rescue are key in any race. 6-8 foot seas will hold speeds down to where the hydraulic cockpit disasters we have seen will be reduced in force and the new technologies will have much greater protective success giving significant precious time to increase the survival odds while allowing rescue crews to reach the scene.
Certainly the builders you mention can put together a hull capable of finishing endurance events (or copying someone who can
), but add a pair of 1750 HP engines (designed for rail dragsters) with a ton of bling, and what you wind up with is the boating version of a funny car....good for a couple of spurts...but it sure isn't an Offshore Racer.
Finally, you are over estimating today's courses as well. The Detroit Gold Cup course is 2.5 miles around. The Great South Bay course is about 5 miles, but parts of it run in 3-6 feet of water. Even the longer courses have turns that are (intentionally?) radiused too tightly for a boat over 25 feet in length...... a 150 plus mph cat of 40-50 feet in length needs a minimum 1/2 mile turning radius (1 mile+ for a u turn)...to be safe.....but today's courses offer a fraction of that, which has little to do with spectator friendliness and a lot to do with "deck to deck" nonsense. I commented on the OPA boats flying into the spectator fleet in Patchogue a few years ago precisely because the turning radii were excessively narrow.
This is about it for me on this topic. I hope that the "new-old model" finds its footing, and I believe the short course model has already found its level. While I truly wish the competitors in each arena whatever success they earn, the concept of a "compromised" (dumbed down) "marriage" between the two will simply dilute the overall product. Its time that the sport stops catering to every point of view. Managing from fear never succeeds, and pie in the sky diplomacy has led to more wars than I can count.
T2x
None of the above is addressing the point. Peter Hledin ( whose products I steadfastly endorse) built boats back when the courses were 150 miles long and ran outside the reef at Key West...He also built boats when they raced on the Great Lakes as compared to Lake Winnepesaukee. Certainly he has taken those lessons to heart and builds accordingly. On the other hand your point about stresses increasing exponentially as speeds increase certainly explains why damn near any laminate will disintegrate at a specific (unneccesary) speed. However, the point is if you put a hull on a 150-250 mile course in big seas (where an Offshore race boat belongs) speeds are naturally reduced due to fuel load, engine durability, and simple mother nature. You don't need tricky rules, multiple classes, GPS thingamabobs, exotic powerplants, or much of anything outside of skill, setup, personal conditioning and the true desire to compete. A $75,000 paint job won't get you a thing, your Porsche....means nothing, and the more hp you try and cram into your mega hull the shorter your engine's life span. It is the perfect self leveling playing field. Most of the major successful car/motorcycle/boat racing organizations have limited speeds in one way or the other....to prevent even the most sophisticated designs from exceeding the limits of adhesion, safety cells, and human organ parameters. Yet Offshore has ignored all of this in favor of "stadium racing" and "shootouts", wherein oversized hulls with obscene HP are "displayed" at speeds well over the limits stated above (risking and , too often, losing lives in the process) in spite of the fact that none of this blowviated hardware can make it from Miami to Nassau or around Long Island (the birthplaces of Offshore racing). I agree that helicopters and rescue are key in any race. 6-8 foot seas will hold speeds down to where the hydraulic cockpit disasters we have seen will be reduced in force and the new technologies will have much greater protective success giving significant precious time to increase the survival odds while allowing rescue crews to reach the scene.
Certainly the builders you mention can put together a hull capable of finishing endurance events (or copying someone who can
), but add a pair of 1750 HP engines (designed for rail dragsters) with a ton of bling, and what you wind up with is the boating version of a funny car....good for a couple of spurts...but it sure isn't an Offshore Racer.Finally, you are over estimating today's courses as well. The Detroit Gold Cup course is 2.5 miles around. The Great South Bay course is about 5 miles, but parts of it run in 3-6 feet of water. Even the longer courses have turns that are (intentionally?) radiused too tightly for a boat over 25 feet in length...... a 150 plus mph cat of 40-50 feet in length needs a minimum 1/2 mile turning radius (1 mile+ for a u turn)...to be safe.....but today's courses offer a fraction of that, which has little to do with spectator friendliness and a lot to do with "deck to deck" nonsense. I commented on the OPA boats flying into the spectator fleet in Patchogue a few years ago precisely because the turning radii were excessively narrow.
This is about it for me on this topic. I hope that the "new-old model" finds its footing, and I believe the short course model has already found its level. While I truly wish the competitors in each arena whatever success they earn, the concept of a "compromised" (dumbed down) "marriage" between the two will simply dilute the overall product. Its time that the sport stops catering to every point of view. Managing from fear never succeeds, and pie in the sky diplomacy has led to more wars than I can count.
T2x
To me, discussions like this are essential. Because most of the people involved are not racers (me, for example), organizers and promoters tend to discount them. And that's a mistake, because while admittedly it's neither our cash nor our backsides on the line, we are the closest thing the sport has to fans. We don't climb in the cockpit and we don't put on races. That's true and worht keeping in mind. We're also not too close to it. That's also worth noting.
What sparked this entire topic for me, Rich, and made your commentary so essential and on point in just about every way, was the mainstream performance-boat enthusiast interest the Around Long Island Endurance run sparked. To write that off or ignore it would be a mistake on the part of any organizer.
10-12-2011, 09:53 AM
#103
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The modern day athlete is in far better physical condition then those of the past, they train year round. In racing, driving a race car is their full time job. They don't need to work on cars, they have highly paid crews to do that.
I'd take Tony Stewart against any of the old timers any day.
ed
I'd take Tony Stewart against any of the old timers any day.
ed
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10-12-2011, 09:59 AM
#104
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You guys are missing the point 60 mile race in a circle pulling tape to know how many laps you run or 60 mile race in the Ocean from one point to another there is really no big difference
the only difference is the GPS circle racing is fair!
So talking like Gieco has no one else in there class it was the same in the old days guys who own boat companys with chase boats save the stories for someone with a blind fold and a clown suit on!My last on this down the new racers tread
the only difference is the GPS circle racing is fair!So talking like Gieco has no one else in there class it was the same in the old days guys who own boat companys with chase boats save the stories for someone with a blind fold and a clown suit on!My last on this down the new racers treadAs for gps racing, that makes even less sense. Isn't part of the game here to see who can get the most speed out of the allowable parts? If you really want to simplify racing why not have one huge gps class? Just set the maximum speed limit at the slowest boats level. All boats race against each other no matter the horsepower, length or anything else. At the end end everybody could get a participation trophy.
Think of how fair it would be.
10-12-2011, 10:12 AM
#105
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The modern day athlete is in far better physical condition then those of the past, they train year round. In racing, driving a race car is their full time job. They don't need to work on cars, they have highly paid crews to do that.
I'd take Tony Stewart against any of the old timers any day.
ed
I'd take Tony Stewart against any of the old timers any day.
ed
10-12-2011, 10:34 AM
#106
Registered
I must be missing your point. How is offshore racing for 60 miles the same as running in 2.5 mile circles for 60 miles? The only similarity is that they both take place on water. I just don't get the "new" racing. It doesn't make sense to me.
As for gps racing, that makes even less sense. Isn't part of the game here to see who can get the most speed out of the allowable parts? If you really want to simplify racing why not have one huge gps class? Just set the maximum speed limit at the slowest boats level. All boats race against each other no matter the horsepower, length or anything else. At the end end everybody could get a participation trophy.
Think of how fair it would be.
As for gps racing, that makes even less sense. Isn't part of the game here to see who can get the most speed out of the allowable parts? If you really want to simplify racing why not have one huge gps class? Just set the maximum speed limit at the slowest boats level. All boats race against each other no matter the horsepower, length or anything else. At the end end everybody could get a participation trophy.
Think of how fair it would be.
The answer for offshore is fewer classes of the big boats,
ie 1 big cat, 1 super v . With the regional GPS guys as the support race.
Mix up the sites with a variety of water and course configurations. Set up a national series with a regional series for the GPS troops, meet somewhere warm in October for the championships.
Just my opinion.
Rich
Joker Powerboats 611
10-12-2011, 12:09 PM
#107
10-12-2011, 12:10 PM
#108
Registered
The modern day athlete is in far better physical condition then those of the past, they train year round. In racing, driving a race car is their full time job. They don't need to work on cars, they have highly paid crews to do that.
I'd take Tony Stewart against any of the old timers any day.
ed
I'd take Tony Stewart against any of the old timers any day.
ed
Btw
AJ won in every type of race car he ever drove in from a Midget, Sprinit, late model on dirt, Indy along with the 24 hours of LeMans(1967), 24 hours of Daytona(1983) in a 935 Porsche he never drove before the 24 hours of Daytona then in 85 he won both the 24 hours of Daytona and 12 hours of Sebring
driving for that old Guy Offshore Racer Preston Henn.
Mario, Gurney and Parnelli didn't do to bad for themselfs winning in pretty much everything ther drove.
Yes, the newer racers are full time athletes, better shape
They can be, as their full time job is driving. they go from racing karts to Indy , , but they also show up with a bag full of sponsor money for a ride.
Its different time and it will be a different in 5 years from now.
thank you
10-12-2011, 12:17 PM
#109
Registered
Actually I thought Mario Andretti would be the best old school match. I know those guys were tough but not necessarly as physically conditioned as todays athletes. Going way back I always laugh at how Babe Ruth looked, he was a overweight and hard drinking but probably had great hand/eye coordination.
10-12-2011, 12:20 PM
#110
Registered
Tony Stwart is the exception and he even built like a slightly smaller AJ who is his Idiot.
Btw
AJ won in every type of race car he ever drove in from a Midget, Sprinit, late model on dirt, Indy along with the 24 hours of LeMans(1967), 24 hours of Daytona(1983) in a 935 Porsche he never drove before the 24 hours of Daytona then in 85 he won both the 24 hours of Daytona and 12 hours of Sebring
driving for that old Guy Offshore Racer Preston Henn.
Mario, Gurney and Parnelli didn't do to bad for themselfs winning in pretty much everything ther drove.
Yes, the newer racers are full time athletes, better shape
They can be, as their full time job is driving. they go from racing karts to Indy , , but they also show up with a bag full of sponsor money for a ride.
Its different time and it will be a different in 5 years from now.
thank you
Btw
AJ won in every type of race car he ever drove in from a Midget, Sprinit, late model on dirt, Indy along with the 24 hours of LeMans(1967), 24 hours of Daytona(1983) in a 935 Porsche he never drove before the 24 hours of Daytona then in 85 he won both the 24 hours of Daytona and 12 hours of Sebring
driving for that old Guy Offshore Racer Preston Henn.
Mario, Gurney and Parnelli didn't do to bad for themselfs winning in pretty much everything ther drove.
Yes, the newer racers are full time athletes, better shape
They can be, as their full time job is driving. they go from racing karts to Indy , , but they also show up with a bag full of sponsor money for a ride.
Its different time and it will be a different in 5 years from now.
thank you
