3 months after Key West; What has been done?
02-08-2012, 10:22 PM
#21
Trent, I respect your right to determine your own destiny, and hope that you do take your safety seriously. The problem is that it is not in every racer's mentality to do so. That's why there are rules and procedures which must be enforced.
I am not an active boat racer, but I do have some close friends in the industry. I have enormous respect for all of them, and want to be able to watch them race in a properly conducted and supported event. I've done a lot in auto racing, and I know that the basic principles of safety and organization carry over to all forms of motorsport.
From what I have seen, there are miles to go on the safety front in boat racing. When there are tragedies like Key West, the response from the organizers and participants should be to investigate, learn, and improve. There is no admission of guilt in making improvements; only the confirmation that safety is considered a serious matter.
Twenty-five years ago, a group of very serious and intelligent people got together and created the Lavin Guidelines in response to a tragedy. My copy is well-used; I find it to be a fascinating and well thought-out document. I would dare say that, after all this time, most racers don't even possess a copy, much less know or enforce the recommendations.
Bottom line? I'm a paying spectator and fan of the sport. It deserves better than it's getting, and if my standing up and asking questions moves it forward, then so be it. Nothing will improve if no changes are made.
I am not an active boat racer, but I do have some close friends in the industry. I have enormous respect for all of them, and want to be able to watch them race in a properly conducted and supported event. I've done a lot in auto racing, and I know that the basic principles of safety and organization carry over to all forms of motorsport.
From what I have seen, there are miles to go on the safety front in boat racing. When there are tragedies like Key West, the response from the organizers and participants should be to investigate, learn, and improve. There is no admission of guilt in making improvements; only the confirmation that safety is considered a serious matter.
Twenty-five years ago, a group of very serious and intelligent people got together and created the Lavin Guidelines in response to a tragedy. My copy is well-used; I find it to be a fascinating and well thought-out document. I would dare say that, after all this time, most racers don't even possess a copy, much less know or enforce the recommendations.
Bottom line? I'm a paying spectator and fan of the sport. It deserves better than it's getting, and if my standing up and asking questions moves it forward, then so be it. Nothing will improve if no changes are made.
Hopefully when the next season starts one of the topics closely scrutinized is which boats and drivers are allowed to participate.
02-09-2012, 06:11 AM
#22
Registered
iTrader: (1)
Trent, I respect your right to determine your own destiny, and hope that you do take your safety seriously. The problem is that it is not in every racer's mentality to do so. That's why there are rules and procedures which must be enforced.
I am not an active boat racer, but I do have some close friends in the industry. I have enormous respect for all of them, and want to be able to watch them race in a properly conducted and supported event. I've done a lot in auto racing, and I know that the basic principles of safety and organization carry over to all forms of motorsport.
From what I have seen, there are miles to go on the safety front in boat racing. When there are tragedies like Key West, the response from the organizers and participants should be to investigate, learn, and improve. There is no admission of guilt in making improvements; only the confirmation that safety is considered a serious matter.
Twenty-five years ago, a group of very serious and intelligent people got together and created the Lavin Guidelines in response to a tragedy. My copy is well-used; I find it to be a fascinating and well thought-out document. I would dare say that, after all this time, most racers don't even possess a copy, much less know or enforce the recommendations.
Bottom line? I'm a paying spectator and fan of the sport. It deserves better than it's getting, and if my standing up and asking questions moves it forward, then so be it. Nothing will improve if no changes are made.
I am not an active boat racer, but I do have some close friends in the industry. I have enormous respect for all of them, and want to be able to watch them race in a properly conducted and supported event. I've done a lot in auto racing, and I know that the basic principles of safety and organization carry over to all forms of motorsport.
From what I have seen, there are miles to go on the safety front in boat racing. When there are tragedies like Key West, the response from the organizers and participants should be to investigate, learn, and improve. There is no admission of guilt in making improvements; only the confirmation that safety is considered a serious matter.
Twenty-five years ago, a group of very serious and intelligent people got together and created the Lavin Guidelines in response to a tragedy. My copy is well-used; I find it to be a fascinating and well thought-out document. I would dare say that, after all this time, most racers don't even possess a copy, much less know or enforce the recommendations.
Bottom line? I'm a paying spectator and fan of the sport. It deserves better than it's getting, and if my standing up and asking questions moves it forward, then so be it. Nothing will improve if no changes are made.
Herein lies the problem, money & and the racers... Nascar budgets over 30 million a year on inspections and safety research. Boat Racing will never have those kind of budgets. Also, with the egos and mentalities of the racers, if you put one rule in that a particular racer doesnt agree with, that team will pick up and run with another and/or start another group of letters.(Look at the history of our sport) Just because SBI makes 10 changes, does that mean that OPA, OSS, XBoat, P1 Superstock are all going to follow suit? More than likely, no. And the same goes for every other org. As long as we the racers continue the way we have over time, nothing will change unless we the racers value our lives. This just isnt an SBI issue, this tragedy just happened to happen on their race course. The associations cant/won't even talk to each other, so how can there be uniform safety rules and enforcement?
I am not making excuses, just stating the reality. I am not by any means stating that changes dont need to be made, but how do you change "club racing"?
02-09-2012, 07:08 AM
#23
Racer
Racer
The offshore racing orgs are too weak and divided to enforce proper rules. The majority of the boats are out dated and the teams can not afford proper safety refits. If they truly wanted safety at all costs they would ban Cats, enforce top speeds and run longer courses with fewer turns. But who would do that? Offshore is not NASCAR and never will be until it's one Org with one spec class designed and enforced by the Org.
How many teams have taken Geico up on the safety check? Trent what safety improvements have you made that the other two Formulas didn't have?
How many teams have taken Geico up on the safety check? Trent what safety improvements have you made that the other two Formulas didn't have?
02-09-2012, 11:16 AM
#25
Geronimo36
Gold Member
My co-worker performed CPR on him until the NJ State Police, SeaBright Police and Coast Guard had arrived. Before the ambulance got there he had been resuscitated but almost died again on his way to the hospital and remained in the hospital for several weeks because the salt water stripped his lungs of the necessary mucous that's needed to prevent infection in your lungs.
He had a bumpy road for several weeks but did eventually make a full recovery. My coworker, Ed, was given an award by the Seabright police department for assisting in the rescue.
So yes, a salt water drowning is not pretty.
Frank
02-09-2012, 12:50 PM
#26
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Trent - I agree with you and feel there is a big difference financially between offshore racing and Nascar / Indy. Money however, should not stop a proper investigation and results there of. There are many people involved in the industry and racing in general that would be willing to assist in making the sport safer for little or no money.
As for Chuck, well his racing history in general is unmatched by anyone on this board. Combine that with many years of performance boating and his connections in the offshore industry and you have a juggernaut of knowledge.
My thought on the thread topic is this:
If Offshore racing were cars, you have everything from Formula 1 cars to street stock dirt cars.
How can you regulate that? Well, you have to really start making some hard choices. I would hate to see the small guys get hurt, but maybe the small guys shouldn't be running 100+ in 10+ year old boats. I mean no disrespect to anyone especially those who perished. What I am saying is that there needs to be strict rules designating classes and regulation of speeds. The old F1 and F2 classes were a great way to keep the boats newer, tame power made cheaper operating costs, and made for great racing.
If you want to run with the big boys then your boat needs to fit the criteria to run "X" power and "X" speeds. These are the rules and if you can't afford to run there, here is plan B (F1 and F2 type classes).
Nascar, Indy and all other national racing organizations regulate engine size, aerodynamics, age of a vehicle, etc. This is for keeping the racing safe and competitive. Offshore needs to do some of the same if it wants to keep its competitors safe and not loose its already limited fan base. Lets face it as it stands now, no one is interested in watching one or two boats per class race.
Just my .02
As for Chuck, well his racing history in general is unmatched by anyone on this board. Combine that with many years of performance boating and his connections in the offshore industry and you have a juggernaut of knowledge.
My thought on the thread topic is this:
If Offshore racing were cars, you have everything from Formula 1 cars to street stock dirt cars.
How can you regulate that? Well, you have to really start making some hard choices. I would hate to see the small guys get hurt, but maybe the small guys shouldn't be running 100+ in 10+ year old boats. I mean no disrespect to anyone especially those who perished. What I am saying is that there needs to be strict rules designating classes and regulation of speeds. The old F1 and F2 classes were a great way to keep the boats newer, tame power made cheaper operating costs, and made for great racing.
If you want to run with the big boys then your boat needs to fit the criteria to run "X" power and "X" speeds. These are the rules and if you can't afford to run there, here is plan B (F1 and F2 type classes).
Nascar, Indy and all other national racing organizations regulate engine size, aerodynamics, age of a vehicle, etc. This is for keeping the racing safe and competitive. Offshore needs to do some of the same if it wants to keep its competitors safe and not loose its already limited fan base. Lets face it as it stands now, no one is interested in watching one or two boats per class race.
Just my .02
02-09-2012, 02:28 PM
#27
Registered
Chuck, I cant disagree with you on this one and yes after seeing my brother 3 ft from being run over by a trailing boat doing approx 90, which more than likely would have killed him, I have made the moves in order to make the boats I race in as safe as possible. I am far from perfect by any means, however, I do my best.
Herein lies the problem, money & and the racers... Nascar budgets over 30 million a year on inspections and safety research. Boat Racing will never have those kind of budgets. Also, with the egos and mentalities of the racers, if you put one rule in that a particular racer doesnt agree with, that team will pick up and run with another and/or start another group of letters.(Look at the history of our sport) Just because SBI makes 10 changes, does that mean that OPA, OSS, XBoat, P1 Superstock are all going to follow suit? More than likely, no. And the same goes for every other org. As long as we the racers continue the way we have over time, nothing will change unless we the racers value our lives. This just isnt an SBI issue, this tragedy just happened to happen on their race course. The associations cant/won't even talk to each other, so how can there be uniform safety rules and enforcement?
I am not making excuses, just stating the reality. I am not by any means stating that changes dont need to be made, but how do you change "club racing"?
Herein lies the problem, money & and the racers... Nascar budgets over 30 million a year on inspections and safety research. Boat Racing will never have those kind of budgets. Also, with the egos and mentalities of the racers, if you put one rule in that a particular racer doesnt agree with, that team will pick up and run with another and/or start another group of letters.(Look at the history of our sport) Just because SBI makes 10 changes, does that mean that OPA, OSS, XBoat, P1 Superstock are all going to follow suit? More than likely, no. And the same goes for every other org. As long as we the racers continue the way we have over time, nothing will change unless we the racers value our lives. This just isnt an SBI issue, this tragedy just happened to happen on their race course. The associations cant/won't even talk to each other, so how can there be uniform safety rules and enforcement?
I am not making excuses, just stating the reality. I am not by any means stating that changes dont need to be made, but how do you change "club racing"?
02-09-2012, 05:38 PM
#28
Registered
iTrader: (1)
I know I'm straying fro the subject but you refer to offshore racing as club racing and I equate it to the old SCCA racing with many classes. But club racing you're not when boats like GEICO, Emirates etc show up. They are mega buck operations and then along comes club racing budget guy trying to compete with them. Maybe what offshore needs is for the mega buck guys to go away and let it be club racing at CLUB RACING SPEEDS !
As you said it was off-topic but it all comes full circle to the fact that there are 4-5 different organizations and resources are non existent. I believe Rich Luhrs was interviewed after the KW tragedies and he stated the same facts but more eloquently.
Tom, you make some great points, however, can you guarantee me that an independent safety team gets together and comes up with a revised version of the "Lavin Guidelines" that every association will adopt this new version? Lets say everyone does, do they have the resources to enforce it? I'll answer that for you, a flat no. Hell they dont have the resources to enforce motor specs properly, now the general public expects them to come up with the resources for safety enforcement?
In the general public, its the law in all 50 if I'm not mistaken to wear a seat belt in a motor vehicle, can everyone sit here and tell me that everyone in this country wears it? When pleasure boaters go out, can you guarantee me that everyone wears a PFD and attaches their kill switches?
I equate boat races to Bike Week here in Daytona. Bike Week has been here since the 30's and last year 14 lives were lost. Well when you have over 200,000 motorcycles in a concentrated area, yes more accidents are going to happen, same as boat racing. What safety mandates can we come up with for Bike Week? Repeal the helmet law? Well the last year that you were required to wear a helmet during Bike Week, 26 lives were lost. So 14 w/o a helmet, 26 with....hmmmm To me it makes more safety sense to wear a helmet, but numbers dont lie.
I am not here on a pedestal and saying I am the voice of reason, however, everyone wants to sit here and say the organizations need to change, no its the racers. We put ourselves in this mess with all the organizations we created"cause we can do it better than you" As I said, if I am not pleased with any if it all changes to safety requirements, I DONT have to race, I could go back to dirt track racing, motorcycle racing and go have fun for a lot less money with the actual possibility of making money.
02-09-2012, 05:56 PM
#29
Registered
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 277
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That is an interesting assumption. But when you think about it, NASCAR vehicles really only cost about $50-80K to make. Race wining cars are $100K. So when you look at the cost of most of the boats from class 5 up exceed that. Granted the sanctioning body is smaller and less funded than NASCAR but safety features are simple, mandatory and work pretty well in those cars. Just because it is a boat doesnt necessarily mean it is outrageously expensive. Most boats already paid to play. What is another $5K for safety features/equipment.
When I saw NASCAR I assumed its a car... But really they just have foam, a Hans device, a very specific roll cage and a certified helmet.
When I saw NASCAR I assumed its a car... But really they just have foam, a Hans device, a very specific roll cage and a certified helmet.
I don't want to side track the thread, but that's what I was saying originally. If Boat racing had these kind of budgets then they could engineer safer capsules. Not just build it, but design it, FEA it, TEST IT, go crash 20 or 30 Skaters and not care just to see what the capsules look like.. etc.. etc..
IMO very humble opinion There's not enough money to really make it standardized and safer was my point. Boat racing is the last of the Wild West. You want to go out and "race" then you go out and "race" nobody forces you to do it. While tragedies are horrible when they happen, there is something to be said for the old saying "Remember when Racing was Dangerous, and Sex was safe?"
It's a thrill ride because it is dangerous.. It's not a video game, you are gambling with your life, and the lives of those around you.
RD
02-09-2012, 09:02 PM
#30
VIP Member
VIP Member
The original question was, what has been done? So far, the only thing that has been released by SBI is the decision to make all safety personel wear pfd's. Great, at least the safety personel will be safe!
As for the accidents in Key West, everyone has had an opinion as to what happened and who is to blame. At this point, it doesn't do much good to lay blame on why these racers died.
Trent is right, not all racers will or can even afford to make drastic, possibly expensive safety changes to their boats. All the racers choose to race, and know there are inherent risks with doing so. However, after being a direct participant in the rescue activities for the past 4 years in Key West, I can say that these procedures are flawed, and need to be re-examined. That is not to say that SBI is responsible for any of these racers deaths. It is only to say that the procedures in place with regards to safety response, need to be re-evaluated and several changes need to be made. After several years of Key West races, without a major injury or death, I think that the procedures just became routine. If no changes are made to the current safety/rescue procedures, all racers are in more danger; even with the best safety equipment available installed on their boats.
Below is the "Press Release" from SBI:
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Key West, Florida- February 8, 2012 In an effort to promote safe boating, John Carbonell, President of SBI and Lee Stanford, President of Leland, have teamed together to outfit all SBI officials and on-the-water course staff with limited edition custom embroidered PFD’s.
“This move towards mandatory PFD wear during the set up and running of our events not only makes our folks safer but it sends a powerful visual message to all our fans and the racing community that wearing a PFD while on the water saves lives.” Carbonell explained. “When Lee came to me with these inflatable PFD’s, I had no idea how comfortable and easy to use they were. He put one on me at the 2011 NYC SBI race and I forgot I had it on; that’s how far these have advanced.”
Inflatable PFD’s have advanced and their costs have stabilized now that they have been in production since 1997 when the USCG issued rulemaking allowing them to meet the carriage requirements. Since then, the USCG reports that significant efforts have been made to promote the wearing of PFD’s while on the water by partnering with the National Safe Boating Council, industry and dozens of dedicated organizations.
The “Wear It” campaign has been well promoted across the nation and is often seen at boat shows and SBI race sites. The USCG District 7 Safety Coordinators in Florida have put many miles on their trailer to educate and demonstrate PFD’s. In the majority of recreational boating drowning’s the victims were not wearing a PFD.
“I am a power boater and SBI race fan and since SBI is the premier racing organization this presents a significant opportunity to put inflatable PFD’s on all the SBI personnel involved. Our company is proud to be a part of this growing sport while promoting safety” says Lee Stanford. “These inflatables offer the user great in the water performance; there are manual and auto inflate models to choose from depending on your activities.” The next SBI race is scheduled for Jacksonville, Florida April 13 to 15.
More information about SBI is available at www.SuperBoat.com and for Leland www.MaximumInflation.com.
As for the accidents in Key West, everyone has had an opinion as to what happened and who is to blame. At this point, it doesn't do much good to lay blame on why these racers died.
Trent is right, not all racers will or can even afford to make drastic, possibly expensive safety changes to their boats. All the racers choose to race, and know there are inherent risks with doing so. However, after being a direct participant in the rescue activities for the past 4 years in Key West, I can say that these procedures are flawed, and need to be re-examined. That is not to say that SBI is responsible for any of these racers deaths. It is only to say that the procedures in place with regards to safety response, need to be re-evaluated and several changes need to be made. After several years of Key West races, without a major injury or death, I think that the procedures just became routine. If no changes are made to the current safety/rescue procedures, all racers are in more danger; even with the best safety equipment available installed on their boats.
Below is the "Press Release" from SBI:
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Key West, Florida- February 8, 2012 In an effort to promote safe boating, John Carbonell, President of SBI and Lee Stanford, President of Leland, have teamed together to outfit all SBI officials and on-the-water course staff with limited edition custom embroidered PFD’s.
“This move towards mandatory PFD wear during the set up and running of our events not only makes our folks safer but it sends a powerful visual message to all our fans and the racing community that wearing a PFD while on the water saves lives.” Carbonell explained. “When Lee came to me with these inflatable PFD’s, I had no idea how comfortable and easy to use they were. He put one on me at the 2011 NYC SBI race and I forgot I had it on; that’s how far these have advanced.”
Inflatable PFD’s have advanced and their costs have stabilized now that they have been in production since 1997 when the USCG issued rulemaking allowing them to meet the carriage requirements. Since then, the USCG reports that significant efforts have been made to promote the wearing of PFD’s while on the water by partnering with the National Safe Boating Council, industry and dozens of dedicated organizations.
The “Wear It” campaign has been well promoted across the nation and is often seen at boat shows and SBI race sites. The USCG District 7 Safety Coordinators in Florida have put many miles on their trailer to educate and demonstrate PFD’s. In the majority of recreational boating drowning’s the victims were not wearing a PFD.
“I am a power boater and SBI race fan and since SBI is the premier racing organization this presents a significant opportunity to put inflatable PFD’s on all the SBI personnel involved. Our company is proud to be a part of this growing sport while promoting safety” says Lee Stanford. “These inflatables offer the user great in the water performance; there are manual and auto inflate models to choose from depending on your activities.” The next SBI race is scheduled for Jacksonville, Florida April 13 to 15.
More information about SBI is available at www.SuperBoat.com and for Leland www.MaximumInflation.com.
