Raylar

Well JP8 its good we respectfully agree to disagree!

One, that older Checkmate appears to be a nicely priced boat package and it appears well taken care of and would make someone a nice $20K boat if the engine and drive are in good shape.

Two, the supossed 540 converted 502 magnum appears to already have rectangle port heads and an air gap spider intake manifold and a good size Holley carb. If its in good shape it should be making about 500Hp or so with hopefully a good cam and the Gil type exhaust. If thats the case it should run in the mid 70"s with that sort of package, so new heads and intake should not be needed and I would think the compression on the new 540 size redo of the engine probably has 8.0 to 9.0 compression and regular pump gas 89-91 should work just fine.

BUT:
I would almost bet you a $25 dollar steak dinner it does not have any more room in the cockpit and perhaps less and it has no more room or height in the cabin than the Formula Fastec 271.
That being said, its +$20K more but the buyer is getting a 2003 year boat with way less hours, a manufacturer still in business (good for resale), a much better freshwater cooled , all electronic efi engine with a stronger drive version of the Bravo drive and a stepped hull for better speed and performance, a 24 degree V versus a 22 degree V hull for what will probably be a better rough water handling hull, and an aluminum trailer for a lighter towing load.

I also think the 1998-2005 25'-27' Baja's represent a good boat value in this area as they don't have integrated swim platforms which gives them a good size cockpit and they have bigger cabin height due to higher hull height bow to amidships. They seem to sell on the market in that $25- $40 K range on trailers in good condition ready to roll.

My point is that there really are quite a few existing 24-27 for performance boats already in the market that fill that possible overnight scenario available at reasonable prices for performance boaters that will still handle and perform like performance boats and give the boater some good handling and creature comforts. I think the GAP is pretty well filled?
JMO

Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar

JP-8

I know that rectangular-port heads are thought to be highly desirable, but I have found that in every instance, the oval-ports afford much greater performance and yield greater efficiency in a marine application; be it high performance or cruiser.

Holley carbs were not designed to be efficient. This is where the Q-Jet comes into its own. They are a little more involved to adjust, but once dialed in, are capable of excellent economy without sacrificing performance.

A higher compression ratio will make better use of the heavier molecules that usually have to be disposed of in the catalytic converter.


Maybe it's an optical illusion, but the Checkmate does appear to have at least a few inches more headroom. Though the small bulkhead looks like it may be a tad uncomfortable.

As for rough water ability, the Formula is more capable, certainly.

I'm not terribly fond of fuel injection as applied to boats. Despite being a more set-it-and-forget-it type of system, the extra complication it introduces isn't something I'd want.

I know it's "the way forward" and suchlike, but I prefer to avoid sophisticated electronics wherever possible.


I grew up boating on a 1979 Baja. They are a fantastic value, and are pretty sturdy.


The bent of my argument is that the traditional cabin cruiser has never been developed to its full potential.

I'm suggesting something that will make it possible to stay aboard beyond the typical overnight scenario; more like 4-6 days in relative comfort with full standing headroom, all in a package that is both fuel efficient and trailerable, yet able to achieve 65-70 MPH.

There has never been anything on the market that caters to those specifications, and that is the gap I am referring to.

scarab63

iTrader: (5)

High perf oval heads &Catalytic converters huh ?

Raylar

OK, excuse me but I have to stop my responses on this thread and go off privately and shake my head! I cannot continue my discussion on this subject, especially when it comes to the engine equipment discussion.

Thank You,

Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar

articfriends

iTrader: (1)

I looked at buying a stingray boat back in 2000, and decided against it- I'm not impressed with them as a "performance" boat so much BUT they did have low-mid 60 mph boats powered by 502/8.1 l motors at one point and even the 23 foot had a bathroom, stove, fridge, bed, couches, etc jammed into the cabin. The new 250 cs has claimed cabin room for 4 to sleep in two different beds, stove, fridge, table, bathroom,etc BUT 5.7 is the biggest motor option+ 55mph most likely BUT there ARE sport/cruiser type 22-25 foot boats out there with moderate power and cabins with alot of features they are just off brands-Smitty
http://www.stingrayboats.com/cgi-bin...lyear=models01
http://www.stingrayboats.com/product...hp?model=250cs

soldier4402

problem is usually families and old people have cruisers and young unpractical people like us have performance. You add cruiser to performance your going to pay a premium just to go a little faster in a cruiser. Theres a market I agree, but boating is small world comapared to vehicle or home ownership so filling in the niches doesnt makes sense.

soldier4402

buddy has a 250ls open bow and I think its a great boat. It still goes 55-57, which factor in all the bells and whistles on that boat thats pretty goo, it has a bath room in it thats good sized and huge storage locker. I would definitely be in the market for a boat like this. If and when I decide to have the family tube puller mind set going 70 kind of goes out the window.

JP-8

Not exactly. I made reference to catalytic converters merely to illustrate that an engine rarely makes complete use of the fuel's potential energy, hence the need for the cat to clean up after it. I will never advocate their use, however, especially in boats.

As for the oval-ports, I value low-end torque a great deal, and never attempt to push an engine beyond 5000 RPM.

I know... none of this rounds off to an even number: I'm inventing my own imaginary gap in a market already bursting with such infinite variety, that the whims of every boater have been catered for several times over before the boater even knows what he really wants in a boat.

To top it all off, I've got gall enough to go against the grain of conventional wisdom as regards engine specs, and am so ignorant of the facts, that I actually expect to be taken seriously on the matter by anyone who'll lend me an ear.

Indeed, when I could get up in the morning, take my pill and tie my shoelaces, my folks weren't proud... they were amazed.

While I like the layout of the 250cs, that foredeck being shaped as it is would be awfully treacherous when wet. This is a large part of the problem with these sorts of boats. Such odd proportions.

This article about modern boat design echoes what I've thought about these trends for years.

Aside from the lack of a mid-cabin berth, this boat has elbow room aplenty:




Now imagine something with those dimensions, a mid-cabin berth, and either twin outboards or a single LSX (carbed, of course) w/ Volvo DP or Bravo.

You'd have it all, and the voyages would be epic.


It is those precise cultural divides that must be dispensed with. What would start out as a niche in this case, actually has the potential to open up into a large portion of the market.

soldier4402

Im not saying I dont disagree but actually pole the market and the idea may not be as hot as you think. Take this into account, the majority of boats out there are 16-24fters. These people are the average every day boaters, im not calling my self rich but to get into the performance world takes sacrifices and money. Now take those 16-24 boats add performance into them and a premium of another 20-40% I dont think your going to have buyers in that market. Take a Stingray 250 ls or CS, boat brand new is probably what 50-60k? Now add a BBC into it, exhaust, k planes, bolster seats, just those alone and your talking another 20k into that already 60k boat. I think you would just price yourself out of the market.

VtSteve

The 250CS has had a troubled life. Just not the best pick in that market. They still have design issues, particularly in the cabin. I was offered a new, loaded one 3 years ago for $50 k. I declined.

You are definitely correct when it comes to equating performance (speed), with more $$$. Always will.

Here is a well-designed, and fairly unique little cruiser. Definitely not for performance, but in all other areas it shines.

The Four Winns 305. Not in your trailerable market for sure, but the biggest and best camping/boating cruising design IMO. I just bring up this new boat since it starts to define what is possible in shorter lengths. The performance boat makers are starting to tap into the CC market, so hybrids will be coming.

The boat I'd be looking for in this segment would be an Active Thunder, preferably with outboards. The 28 is the smallest I think now. Some of these boats would be far more practical for this thread's use if they cleaned up their cockpits, put any cooking areas in the cockpit, and did more of what AT did in their yet to be released new design.