Checkmate Production Slammed
05-04-2012, 12:51 PM
#41
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Yes, they both have the same internals except camshafts (same cost for camshafts), same externals and are both built and assembled at Fondulac on the same line. I honestly think it"s a bit crazy and obviously on some smaller boats it may be somewhat driven by insurance requirements, but in a 27-29 footer makes no sense and I feel is counter productive to growing the boating industry. As I said, if every builder had the choice of buying the 380HP versus the 430HP versions for what should be the SAME price, what do you think their decision would be!? Kinda a NO Brainer! Since the SBC at 260-350HP provides the smaller HP area and the Racing HP525's and now HP565 fill the upper HP area for noramlly aspirated efi engines why does the industry even need a 380HP and 430HP seperate versions anyway? Build and supply all 430HP versions and sell them all for the price of the 370 ! Makes more sense to me but I don't begin to know everything about what and why. Maybe someone from Mercury can explain their reasoning.
Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar
Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar
You're points are beyond valid and I'm in complete agreement.
One would think that understanding that volume is king and profits follow volume that Mercury would actually deliver additional bottom line by providing a better value for the same money. But then again, who am I to pass judgement against 'em.
05-04-2012, 01:24 PM
#42
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Yes, they both have the same internals except camshafts (same cost for camshafts), same externals and are both built and assembled at Fondulac on the same line. I honestly think it"s a bit crazy and obviously on some smaller boats it may be somewhat driven by insurance requirements, but in a 27-29 footer makes no sense and I feel is counter productive to growing the boating industry. As I said, if every builder had the choice of buying the 380HP versus the 430HP versions for what should be the SAME price, what do you think their decision would be!? Kinda a NO Brainer! Since the SBC at 260-350HP provides the smaller HP area and the Racing HP525's and now HP565 fill the upper HP area for noramlly aspirated efi engines why does the industry even need a 380HP and 430HP seperate versions anyway? Build and supply all 430HP versions and sell them all for the price of the 370 ! Makes more sense to me but I don't begin to know everything about what and why. Maybe someone from Mercury can explain their reasoning.
Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar
Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar
Michael
05-04-2012, 10:40 PM
#44
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Yep, thats what many US "Smartest Guy In the Room" public corporations should do, make easy profit, at the expense of loyal customers and the the longer term market they sell in and survive on and then when that market burps or tanks, those wonderful loyal shareholders can and will bail, dump their stock and destroy the long term worth of the stock and corporation because the easy profits started falling and disappearing. Dah!
There is nothing like a loyal stock holder, if you can find one!
Look carefully at the long term stock price of Brunswick and its falling value and dividends and you can see it in action.
Slippery slope with that Harvard Business School logic and short sided approach to a market. But with the way a lot of corporate boards hire gunslinger CEO's and pay them huge pots of gold almost exclusively on the returns to shareholders over short periods , what do you expect. These corporations are always looking "backwards through the binoculars"
I think the current mantra today with these companies is
Make it big today, screw tommorrow!"
Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar
There is nothing like a loyal stock holder, if you can find one!
Look carefully at the long term stock price of Brunswick and its falling value and dividends and you can see it in action.
Slippery slope with that Harvard Business School logic and short sided approach to a market. But with the way a lot of corporate boards hire gunslinger CEO's and pay them huge pots of gold almost exclusively on the returns to shareholders over short periods , what do you expect. These corporations are always looking "backwards through the binoculars"
I think the current mantra today with these companies is
Make it big today, screw tommorrow!"
Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar
05-07-2012, 12:11 AM
#45
Registered
05-07-2012, 12:21 AM
#46
Registered
^^^ Hey Ray, have you ever looked into partnering with an aftermarket drive manufacture to produce a reasonably priced "anti Mercury" engine/drive combo that would allow the average guy back in the new boat market?
05-07-2012, 12:37 AM
#47
Registered
effing a-holes.....
Last edited by pullmytrigger; 05-07-2012 at 12:44 AM.
05-07-2012, 11:44 PM
#48
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I think with the right aftermarket drive like a high production volume stronger Imco SC type, designed and produced in a medium price point we could develop a reasonably priced 600HP LSX based engine that with the right boat builds -ie. lightweight vacuum bagging and newer materials -resins and efficient hydro-dynamic designed bottoms with user friendly layouts one could help put performance boats between 26-36 foot range at some reasonable price points to re-invigerate that market provided the economy doesn't stall or spiral back down in the next 4-5 years.
What I am talking about here is 600HP $22K engine, $13K drive and a $75K moderatly equipped and finished hull that can sell for that magic $140-$150K price level in a single engine 26-29 foot 85-90mph boat and a $175K-$200K twin engine drive 30-36 foot boat.
I think one of the problems for previously developing this forward looking product was that when the ecomomy was doing well 1996-2007 not to many were investing in new hull designs & builds, drive technology, engines were all old 60-70's designs and efficiencies and the market was driven by quick today profit, some lower qualitied volume, easy to attain financing, and filling up factories productions with dealer flooring inventories sold with major discounts, financing and dating. A lot of the slow resurrection of some boat building now is still based on using old hull designs, build techniques, high cost power and drive combos that excuse the statement " are marketing 70's boats with 2015 pricing.
The small production high quality, high dollar builders like OL, Cigarette, MTI, Skater, DCB. Frisini,etc.and such have kept a nice capitve 12-24 boats per year high dollar buyer market and continue to turn out amazing high quality boats with amazing performance and stratospheric pricing. Back pre 2008 this probably only represented 5-10% of the total performance boat market by volume and 20% of the performance boat sales dollars. Today in the nearly decimated performance boat market they probably represent 50% of the total market volume and 75% of the total performance boat dollar sales. Does not take to many $750K - $1.5M dollar boats to do that in todays market!
The market still has some medium/high price builders like Active Thunder,Sunsation, Formula, etc. that were building in that 12-36 boat builds per year market back in the good economy for these 26-36 foot size boats. They are run'in lean and mean today with much smaller orders and production just try'in to stay alive! Hoping for better days ahead! They have kept upgrading their product and bringing a few new models to market but the cost versus small volume has kept these boats priced well into the $200-$250K price ranges.
If the market starts recovering there could be a pretty good void to fill if you consider the hundreds of boats built per year in the past from now missing builders such as Baja, Fountain, Donzi, etc. These were not all medium cost builders and those like Donzi and Fountain produced some pretty big numbers of great performing boats with pretty good overall quality for a then hungry market.
What we seem to have in todays new boat market is:
1. Huge dollar buyers who barely care what it costs.
2. High dollar buyers who have moderate budget and want a lot for that dollar.
3. The rest of the hopefull medium dollar buyers who can't afford almost anything offered in todays performance boat market. A small quantity buy new and a larger amount buy bigger used.
4. The low dollar buyers who would love to buy new but realize they can't afford a new boat period. They buy strickly used and pick thru the used boats turned over above.
JMO by the way, I am not and have not ever been a boat builder successful or otherwise, so what the heck do I know anyway! Just some semi-intelligent experience, observation and study thrown in with a little dart board and WAGMAR guesses!
Obviously the market for medium price point performance boats is very small now and whether something like this can be done will pretty much totally depend on if and how much the economy, that market and buyers return.
Let's hope it does and some in the industry can put something like this together again.
Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar
What I am talking about here is 600HP $22K engine, $13K drive and a $75K moderatly equipped and finished hull that can sell for that magic $140-$150K price level in a single engine 26-29 foot 85-90mph boat and a $175K-$200K twin engine drive 30-36 foot boat.
I think one of the problems for previously developing this forward looking product was that when the ecomomy was doing well 1996-2007 not to many were investing in new hull designs & builds, drive technology, engines were all old 60-70's designs and efficiencies and the market was driven by quick today profit, some lower qualitied volume, easy to attain financing, and filling up factories productions with dealer flooring inventories sold with major discounts, financing and dating. A lot of the slow resurrection of some boat building now is still based on using old hull designs, build techniques, high cost power and drive combos that excuse the statement " are marketing 70's boats with 2015 pricing.
The small production high quality, high dollar builders like OL, Cigarette, MTI, Skater, DCB. Frisini,etc.and such have kept a nice capitve 12-24 boats per year high dollar buyer market and continue to turn out amazing high quality boats with amazing performance and stratospheric pricing. Back pre 2008 this probably only represented 5-10% of the total performance boat market by volume and 20% of the performance boat sales dollars. Today in the nearly decimated performance boat market they probably represent 50% of the total market volume and 75% of the total performance boat dollar sales. Does not take to many $750K - $1.5M dollar boats to do that in todays market!
The market still has some medium/high price builders like Active Thunder,Sunsation, Formula, etc. that were building in that 12-36 boat builds per year market back in the good economy for these 26-36 foot size boats. They are run'in lean and mean today with much smaller orders and production just try'in to stay alive! Hoping for better days ahead! They have kept upgrading their product and bringing a few new models to market but the cost versus small volume has kept these boats priced well into the $200-$250K price ranges.
If the market starts recovering there could be a pretty good void to fill if you consider the hundreds of boats built per year in the past from now missing builders such as Baja, Fountain, Donzi, etc. These were not all medium cost builders and those like Donzi and Fountain produced some pretty big numbers of great performing boats with pretty good overall quality for a then hungry market.
What we seem to have in todays new boat market is:
1. Huge dollar buyers who barely care what it costs.
2. High dollar buyers who have moderate budget and want a lot for that dollar.
3. The rest of the hopefull medium dollar buyers who can't afford almost anything offered in todays performance boat market. A small quantity buy new and a larger amount buy bigger used.
4. The low dollar buyers who would love to buy new but realize they can't afford a new boat period. They buy strickly used and pick thru the used boats turned over above.
JMO by the way, I am not and have not ever been a boat builder successful or otherwise, so what the heck do I know anyway! Just some semi-intelligent experience, observation and study thrown in with a little dart board and WAGMAR guesses!
Obviously the market for medium price point performance boats is very small now and whether something like this can be done will pretty much totally depend on if and how much the economy, that market and buyers return.
Let's hope it does and some in the industry can put something like this together again.
Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar
05-08-2012, 01:21 AM
#49
Banned
Mast Marine builds an n/a 600hp under 600lb 6.8L engine. Perfect for lightweight boats 22' and up. Use almost any drive up to and including Arneson ASD6-7. If I was Checkmate or any other small performance boatbuilder I would look very closely at this powertrain.
05-08-2012, 11:06 AM
#50
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Mast has been marketing a nice looking LSX 600HP marine engine for a while now. I nor others have seen the actual engine yet and I have no idea what pricing is. I would be as curious as others to hear when and what's really available now or if not when. Any LSX marine engine that gets priced up near Ilmors new MV8-570 it will be a fairly high ticket item.
Best Regards,
RAy @! Raylar
Best Regards,
RAy @! Raylar
