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Poker Runs – Are we going too fast?

Old 08-13-2012, 04:18 PM
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In a word, yes. As far as Im concerned without a cleared course, dive teams etc you shouldnt be going 150+ mph. Period.
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Old 08-13-2012, 04:20 PM
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This thread needs Chris Sunkin's expertise and experience to set us all straight.
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Old 08-13-2012, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by black thunder 46
It's all about paying atention if you were running the speed my way was going and you see a 520searay plowing by you would think they would have got out of the throttle and started to trim down alittle in the video it didn't even look like he bothered slowing down.
Brett
To Mr. T's eyes it no doubt looked like the tub was setting still . As for the op's view , you tell me he was so oblivious to his surroundings that he never saw all the spectator boats to starboard or the rooster TAILS' coming his way . There are quite a few of these tubs runnin where i do and a few there is no correct way to take the wakes they put out ! Too fast and your skied , too slow and because of the steepness and highth of this unnatural monster you stuff . The only way is way out around and still get blown outta the water ......Their way of showing dominance over the rest of us ...
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Old 08-13-2012, 05:02 PM
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Default This is what I posted on another thread...

...but is relevant here also.

There have been many outstanding posts, both pro and con about Poker Runs and the responsibility of the recent My Way incident. There have been some which were obviously more from emotion than reason.

As many have said, I am very happy there were no injuries with My Way and extremely saddened with other events (or things which happened around events even if they were not part of the event) over the weekend.

In this thread or one of the others a statement was made there were no speed limits so it is OK to run fast.

NOT TRUE!

On the St Lawrence there are speed limits for any craft with a total length of 12M or more. That is 39.4'. And that is 12M total, not waterline and not hull length; total!

Great Lakes-Seaway Handbook page 38 section 28.
SCHEDULE II - TABLE OF SPEEDS 1

I have Captained Performance Boats, have friends who are owners. I have become an interested observer of the activity and enjoyed following the racing. I am too old, too tired and too weak to have much more speed than my 6.5 knot GF in my own fleet. I have faster boats, but they are bigger and in humour I call my 16' skiff my 6.5 knot GF.

My real concern is if the organizers and/or leading voices of Performance Boating do not take an active roll of trying to control what happens from the inside, no one with any interests in Performance Boating will be happy if it happens from the outside.
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Old 08-13-2012, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Twin O/B Sonic
This should get good in a hurry I think I'll keep my opinion to myself too.
Originally Posted by Twin O/B Sonic
I do have to say/type..., after reading the first 2/3 of the My Way thread this is getting pretty stupid. (poker runs in general)
The clear video of that accident is tough to argue. The SeaRay cruiser was closer to 50'+ than it was 30'. It was off plane, plowing water. It can't make a bigger wake than that. You can see where the cruiser wake is in that video and My Way lifts as soon as it hit's it. You can debate blame but it is not the cruisers fault! That cruiser was probably making a 6' wake.
Here's the gig boys and girls. Debate it all you want but a "Poker Run" is NOT A RACE! Therefore, not in a controlled environment/race course absent of pleasure craft. A race course is controlled and patrolled. Go to a poker run and want to run a buck fifty.....don't ***** about cruiser wakes. (unless it is a patrolled/permitted event) Want to ***** about cruiser wakes...., step to the plate and sign your liability release and have at it.

How about this one......, you and the family are in your 23' bow rider following the SeaRay so you have a calmer ride. You nor the SeaRay have any knowledge of said poker run (how would you unless it's a patrolled/controlled event???) and are just cruising along enjoying seeing the pretty race (oop's, I men poker run) boats flying by when the big cat jumps the SeaRays wake and heads straight for you at how ever fast they still going.
Yeah, it's the cruisers fault. Unfreagin believable!!!
Sorry, now I'm pissed.

Someone posted earlier, this (poker runs at this level) won't last long and I'd say they're right.

I can tell you from experience about the scariest thing to have happen to you in a fast boat is to have your foot on the floor, the boats done accelerating and then you see a wave you didn't before. Not only that, you know it's too late to prevent hitting it at warp speed. What do you do??
Hope you live through it so you can ***** at the cabin cruiser for minding his own business in an open body of water and you not seeing his wake or realizing whats coming??? Let's see, open water, big boat..............., I know. Big wake.
Yep, it's the cruisers fault.
well that worked out good...


by the way I agree with you...
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Old 08-13-2012, 05:49 PM
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let me start by saying just yesterday (8/12/12) I actually won my 1st poker run......entered and ran in quite a few but that was the 1st time I won....... and my point is that in NO way did I have the fastest boat in the fleet, as a matter of fact I was closer to the bottom then I'd like to admit. But I won..... so with that being said a poker run is in no way a race.....it is simply as stated, a poker game on the water. Now we all love to come and see the amazing machinery these guys bring and run but lets face it, in public water ways with other boats, jetski's, and people sharing the waterways it is crazy to run those speeds...... I don't place blame on the organizers because they are doing great work to help us enjoy our hobby and keep people interested (coming back), but they are the ones who really need to help turn the tide. I feel the perfect model for this is something like the loto shootout. These guys show up from all over to let it all hang out on a closed course with lots of safety close by. Then if I am not mistaken there is a poker run on another day. I would hate to say "speed limits" are in order for actual poker runs but if a "shootout" event has already been had there is no need to show case your top number during a poker run on a body of water where people are unaware of 100+ mph boats flying by. If in some way an organizer can pick areas or locations where higher speeds are allowed...... such as yesterday in the L.I. Sound when you are out in certain areas it is definatly open enough to push the limits but near harbors would be some sort of limit (enforcing this would be the problem). Or what about what they do in Jersey by having it on a Friday, that definatly improves the safety because let's face it the water is much more crowded on the weekends. Or run more open ocean courses, you can go out of Jones inlet on L.I. and run WOT all you want.....as long as you and your crew are aware of the risk in harming yourselves. Well that's my opinion and you you know what they say about opinions.....
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Old 08-13-2012, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by fast fun 2
In a word, yes. As far as Im concerned without a cleared course, dive teams etc you shouldnt be going 150+ mph. Period.
Too Fast for conditions would be more correct.

On a closed/ controlled race coarse, with controlled traffic, safety teams in place, ambulance on site/call, everybody in inspected boats and wearing correct safety gear........ Go for it!

On public waterways, open coarse, no controls on traffic, un marked coarse, all drivers pro to rookie, no safety boats, lack of quality safety gear, etc. All bets are off.

Most of the responsibility or lack of is completely in the hands of the pilot of the boat.

It is the pilots and co-pilots job to read the conditions and drive accordingly.

If he mis-reads a wake, doesn't let off in time, loses control of his boat. ........It's no ones fault but his.

Everytime I have found myself too high in the air, or stuffed a boat, blowing the deck off, out of shape on my landing, I can honestly say it was nobodys fault but mine.

"Too fast for conditions".

Last edited by Nice Pair; 08-13-2012 at 07:02 PM.
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Old 08-13-2012, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Too Stroked
Recent incidents like the crash of My Way at the Thousand Islands Poker Run bring up an interesting question. Are Poker Runs getting to the point where boats are running too fast?

This is not a new problem or question as I think we all know what happened a number of years ago in the Smoke on the Water Poker Run. Unlike the My Way incident where fortunately nobody was hurt, lives were lost and lawsuits were filed. Well meaning individuals who used to run that fine event have pretty well had their lives ruined in court. And I should note that by all accounts, the boats involved in that crash were not going anywhere near as fast as My Way.

So why would I suggest that speeds in Poker Runs may have gotten out of control? First of all, look at how fast the boat was going (in the video) just before the crash. Even in the best of conditions with the best people behind the controls, things happen so fast at that speed as to make adequate reaction to “special circumstances” (like a big wake) problematic at best. Second, note when the real damage occurred to the boat – after they’d backed out of the throttles on the second bounce. Imagine what would have happened if they got as much air on the first kite? No matter how well constructed the boat was, nobody would have survived. Finally, notice that none of the pictures that have surfaced as of yet show medical / rescue boats anywhere near My Way after the crash. Thank god nobody was hurt.

And here’s one more important thing to think about for all of us that participate in and run Poker Runs. By all accounts, the crew on My Way is as close as one’s going to get to professional racers – yet they’ve still been involved in two fairly serious incidents this year. Think about the average Poker Run participant and their equipment. Do they have “adequate” time behind the wheel to handle all conditions? Is their hardware adequate for the task, up to date and safe? Did anybody verify that both boat and crew were up to the task? The answer is “probably not.” And that should be cause for some concern.

So the question I have to ask is whether or not we can reasonably allow boats to go this fast on a unsecured course in a “recreational” event?

Full Disclosure: I am the former Race Director for the Rochester Offshore Powerboat Association. I also used to co-run the Radar Run portion of our annual Battleship Run on Seneca Lake with another OSO member until we talked the club out of it for liability reasons.

Its out of hand, your run was fine pace boats for all three speed groups. NJPPC does it almost the same way speed limit in the bay. Ocean once you are clear is unlimited. Also all canopied boats have to have there own chopper with divers follow them.

Don't know these guys everyone says they are more than qualified to run at these speeds, ok is the guy that cuts them off? And as qualified as they are they still wrecked from a boat wake.

I hit a large cruiser wake once wide open, not any where near there speed, in the air I remember thinking "this is going to be a long thread if I screw this up" really I did, never did I think it was the cruisers fault. It was my responsibility as the operator of my boat to see it,I didn't. Turned out fine, but attitudes need to change or we are in for major restrictions when not if non participants start getting killed.

Last edited by Expensive Date; 08-13-2012 at 06:11 PM.
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Old 08-13-2012, 06:34 PM
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Default Hoped no one would...

Originally Posted by boatnt
well that worked out good...


by the way I agree with you...
catch that
Was fine until watching the My Way video and how close that came to being catastrophic for many and then reading the idiots bashing the cruiser captain. He would have been in the wrong had it been a closed/controlled course.

Last edited by Twin O/B Sonic; 08-13-2012 at 07:17 PM.
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Old 08-13-2012, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Twin O/B Sonic

I can tell you from experience about the scariest thing to have happen to you in a fast boat is to have your foot on the floor, the boats done accelerating and then you see a wave you didn't before. Not only that, you know it's too late to prevent hitting it at warp speed. What do you do??
Hope you live through it so you can ***** at the cabin cruiser for minding his own business in an open body of water and you not seeing his wake or realizing whats coming??? Let's see, open water, big boat..............., I know. Big wake.
Complete agreement with your post and a little add on to this portion.

Late FIL's Mainship trawler was damn near 16' wide and 20' tall under bridges. I have no idea of the weight but she needed near 6' of depth, and never got on plane or went fast.
Plenty of circle jerkers would jump the wake intentionally at much much lower speeds and get huge air in the small boats. I could never imagine what a boat in the triple
digits would do hitting it oncoming.
These clowns would 180 around and hit it again coming from the rear as he'd be hollering on the radio attempting to hail them to not do it. I really couldn't tell how big the cruiser or the wake was but it was plenty big enough even if it was only a 30 footer.

I'd say the Cap'n of My Way did a great job of recovering and came out alright but it involved a little luck too.
One of the previous posters was spot on. On our ZX10R ninjas street riding at those speeds everything looks parked even when they're exceeding the speed limit being overtaken and coming head on they appear and disappear in just 10 to 15 seconds. There is no reaction time.
Yes, my son and I were just as stupid as the circle jerkers I mentioned, it took the loss of a dear friend to realize just how close we were dancing with death to make the decision to sell. Nothing is harder than being with his widow and sons having a great time with our families and knowing we contributed to their loss by being part of the madness of speed. It is intoxicating indeed.

I'm very glad the crew was OK, control of the boat was maintained, and no other boats were involved.

See ya,
Kelly
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