Cummins 6BTA 5.9 Performance Build
11-19-2012, 04:52 PM
#41
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JD - First I love talking this stuff and understand I argue every point, not personal, I just debate, argue every point because I like to get to a better place than I am today and by agreeing and shutting up, no one gets further along so please feel free to debate me 
Seatek started with sequentials in 1990 and they have proven to be winners for not just them but others as well. (we can explore that later on as to why)
What I think you are missing here is where does all the waste gated plumbing go? The plumbing needed for all this to go into a water jacketed exhaust pipe would be very hard. The water jacketing of all the parts is tough, if you blanket them all the heat will eventually do everything in - remember no air passes into the engine area of a boat compared to a car going down the highway or drag strip.
When you refer to the sequentials in you compare apples to oranges with a boat and a truck. Everyone that has tried the compound approach with high boost like you mention 100 psi has not been able to do that in a boat. I would wager if you took your triple turbo engine put it on a dyno at 800hp - 900 hp and left it there for 15 minutes you would have a sick engine that is in need of some help.
An old Cummins B like we're talking about here have so many inherent problems when the HP is elevated, not bad materials but they were designed to be in a back-hoe at 165 hp max. The oil cooler placement, the pistons above the deck where the combustion chamber is actually alongside the top edge of the piston, the swirl ramp inside the intake ports (very low CC's on top of the valve), the interal water pump, and it goes on - it's a great engine but not for ultra high Hp.
What kind of tranny does the truck have in it?
Seatek started with sequentials in 1990 and they have proven to be winners for not just them but others as well. (we can explore that later on as to why)
What I think you are missing here is where does all the waste gated plumbing go? The plumbing needed for all this to go into a water jacketed exhaust pipe would be very hard. The water jacketing of all the parts is tough, if you blanket them all the heat will eventually do everything in - remember no air passes into the engine area of a boat compared to a car going down the highway or drag strip.
When you refer to the sequentials in you compare apples to oranges with a boat and a truck. Everyone that has tried the compound approach with high boost like you mention 100 psi has not been able to do that in a boat. I would wager if you took your triple turbo engine put it on a dyno at 800hp - 900 hp and left it there for 15 minutes you would have a sick engine that is in need of some help.
An old Cummins B like we're talking about here have so many inherent problems when the HP is elevated, not bad materials but they were designed to be in a back-hoe at 165 hp max. The oil cooler placement, the pistons above the deck where the combustion chamber is actually alongside the top edge of the piston, the swirl ramp inside the intake ports (very low CC's on top of the valve), the interal water pump, and it goes on - it's a great engine but not for ultra high Hp.
What kind of tranny does the truck have in it?
11-19-2012, 04:54 PM
#42
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I have to say you are taking what we were talking about way out of context - I'm refering to the old engines. I should hope these new marvels of technology do NOT smoke or else I would be very disappointed in Cummins - LOL
I believe with that boat you will smash Buzzi's record I wish you all the luck and success! Make sure you let me know when you're coming to town I want to hook-up with you guys!
Last edited by HabanaJoe; 11-19-2012 at 04:57 PM.
11-19-2012, 05:20 PM
#43
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JD - First I love talking this stuff and understand I argue every point, not personal, I just debate, argue every point because I like to get to a better place than I am today and by agreeing and shutting up, no one gets further along so please feel free to debate me
Seatek started with sequentials in 1990 and they have proven to be winners for not just them but others as well. (we can explore that later on as to why)
What I think you are missing here is where does all the waste gated plumbing go? The plumbing needed for all this to go into a water jacketed exhaust pipe would be very hard. The water jacketing of all the parts is tough, if you blanket them all the heat will eventually do everything in - remember no air passes into the engine area of a boat compared to a car going down the highway or drag strip.
When you refer to the sequentials in you compare apples to oranges with a boat and a truck. Everyone that has tried the compound approach with high boost like you mention 100 psi has not been able to do that in a boat. I would wager if you took your triple turbo engine put it on a dyno at 800hp - 900 hp and left it there for 15 minutes you would have a sick engine that is in need of some help.
An old Cummins B like we're talking about here have so many inherent problems when the HP is elevated, not bad materials but they were designed to be in a back-hoe at 165 hp max. The oil cooler placement, the pistons above the deck where the combustion chamber is actually alongside the top edge of the piston, the swirl ramp inside the intake ports (very low CC's on top of the valve), the interal water pump, and it goes on - it's a great engine but not for ultra high Hp.
What kind of tranny does the truck have in it?
Seatek started with sequentials in 1990 and they have proven to be winners for not just them but others as well. (we can explore that later on as to why)
What I think you are missing here is where does all the waste gated plumbing go? The plumbing needed for all this to go into a water jacketed exhaust pipe would be very hard. The water jacketing of all the parts is tough, if you blanket them all the heat will eventually do everything in - remember no air passes into the engine area of a boat compared to a car going down the highway or drag strip.
When you refer to the sequentials in you compare apples to oranges with a boat and a truck. Everyone that has tried the compound approach with high boost like you mention 100 psi has not been able to do that in a boat. I would wager if you took your triple turbo engine put it on a dyno at 800hp - 900 hp and left it there for 15 minutes you would have a sick engine that is in need of some help.
An old Cummins B like we're talking about here have so many inherent problems when the HP is elevated, not bad materials but they were designed to be in a back-hoe at 165 hp max. The oil cooler placement, the pistons above the deck where the combustion chamber is actually alongside the top edge of the piston, the swirl ramp inside the intake ports (very low CC's on top of the valve), the interal water pump, and it goes on - it's a great engine but not for ultra high Hp.
What kind of tranny does the truck have in it?
Assuming i was going to do this and had the money etc...I doubt the plumbing for the gates would be my biggest concern but i could be wrong. Really there is only one place for that to go and ya back into the exhaust and out. As far as the heat i don't view it as a huge problem, turbo blankets etc, but again i could be wrong.
I don't know how long an engine would last on a dyno like that. I can tell you i have a freind with the same triples as me with 75 k on his engine. That was a complete build although and it makes a 1000hp, but he keeps it turned down most the time. One would have to really capitilize on the "diesel" advantages to make this work in a high HP application.
I think it would take a unique desighn to make a high HP diesel marine work really well. For example the triples that where on my truck were built to be a peak torque setup. The builder had me get a stock baseline peak torque dyno graph and than built them to be within there map right at that point. Now they do stay on there map for awhile but under load at i think 2100 RPM cruising down the road they where right there doing there thing.
Yes they were desighned to be tractor motors. But we have dry sumps, internally balanced motors now that do incredible things in the diesel world. If you want a *****en piece any piece for a diesel motor you can get it now. Combine that with the tuning ability with EFI live and you have some good stuff.
Both those trucks run Ford 4R100 auto trannies. Yes you read that right.
Last edited by JD Dearden; 11-19-2012 at 05:26 PM.
11-19-2012, 05:35 PM
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11-19-2012, 06:10 PM
#46
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I'm back!
1st to give some parameters to my questions.
Why the 12 valve engine? Emission Regulations! building up a pre tier one boat and have to stick to pre tier one engines. Newer model engines would mean newer emission regs!
Why the 24 valve pistons? Mahle makes a "thermal piston" which basically a knock off of the pistons Komatsu uses. One piece steel with a skeleton skirt. From my experience with komatsu engines those babies look sweet to me. Just don't know if the crown design will work with my application.
Lower end build up. Seasoned magnafluxed & blueprinted block.
main cap studs & girdle. Semi drysump set up. Raw water oil cooler. Wet balancer & shaved flywheel.
Why the 12 valve engine? Emission Regulations! building up a pre tier one boat and have to stick to pre tier one engines. Newer model engines would mean newer emission regs!
Why the 24 valve pistons? Mahle makes a "thermal piston" which basically a knock off of the pistons Komatsu uses. One piece steel with a skeleton skirt. From my experience with komatsu engines those babies look sweet to me. Just don't know if the crown design will work with my application.
Lower end build up. Seasoned magnafluxed & blueprinted block.
main cap studs & girdle. Semi drysump set up. Raw water oil cooler. Wet balancer & shaved flywheel.
11-19-2012, 06:49 PM
#47
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If you think you must use the 24v pistons then your going to have to use a 24v head. You can still use a mechanical p-pump for the injection just need some aftermarket lines.
11-19-2012, 07:16 PM
#48
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fixx
They smell like urea, from all the after treatment. Catalyst, dpf and def injected in to burn up anything that resembles a by product of diesel combustion. Funny though these new "clean" diesel trucks are getting 12-16 mpg, a 94 dodge with a smokey dumb 12v gets mid to high 20's. Hell I got 19-20 out of my 800hp duramax
11-19-2012, 07:48 PM
#50
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My problem with a common rail setup for this application is the expense of components and lack of reliability. Injectors don't last 100k in a truck, how long are they going to last under full load and continuous higher egts? Granted it will be much easier to tune via laptop an control smoke but well planned out it can be done in a mechanically injected motor without a lot of hassle. Best bet would be compounds, big waste gates and 2 speed transmissions. Anyone want to fund this cuz I so want to build it! Lol
