bwd

iTrader: (1)

No offense taken. I expect contradictions.

johnnyboatman

iTrader: (5)

Theres a 24 skater at our lake with a pair of 5.3s runs real well, sounds sweet. Go to the skater forums and look it up.

cheech

Which ones are better for the money in your opinion?

skaterdave

totally agree, not knocking you, saleen, but seeing that giants like roush and yates pretty much had to join up to stay competitve and profitable. plus they now offer engines and engine programs for dirt and drag race teams. i don't know all the numbers but a friend runs R/Y motor in a sprint car with winning results, this is just a local racer in new york. he's actually spending less with them vs local engine shop out of NY.

wannabe

You bet, how about 12 quart oill pans and very heavy duty oil pumps, windage trays, huge oil coolers and filters. My 454's take 14 quarts a side. My Wix filter holds almost a quart by itself. Oil is the lifeblood of these engines.

Having said that GM does build a lot of Mercs motors- the black ones you find in the Bayliners, Sea Rays, etc. Merc specs them but GM builds them and ships them to Merc who final dresses them with the exhaust manifolds, ignitions, etc. But those engines have different bearings, valves, rings, oil pump, etc. from your basic car motors. These are made more "heavy duty" parts and the clearances are set up for Marine. GM Powertrain makes pretty good $ selling these motors.

Wannabe

professor_speed

That would depend on my goal for the engine.
For a big cude engine I would have said a World products Warhawk. (It looks to be discontinued, Although there is plenty of inventory still out there, I have not looked into a big cube build for over a year.)

There is some precautions that need to be considered with that block. But There are some things I would look at on the LSX block too. expect to check everything and spend a few dollars making sure it is straight everywhere.

Depending on the goal a production block may get the job done alot cheaper.

professor_speed

IMO anyone looking to build an LS that uses a non production block would probably be better served with a BBC. Past 418 cid the price of an ls starts to get out of hand, and will be on par if not more expensive than a BBC. I really Like the LS but if you want a big cube LS its not cheap. I have a pretty Nasty 427 sleeved LS2, Uber LS7 heads, Billet everything etc etc, but I could have built a stout 540 for the same dollars, granted it would weigh more, but It would also make more torque.

Imo The LS will shine in up some 30 foot singles and Maybe up a to 38 in twins. Beyond that to make a single speed transmission set up work you really need more torque. Two speed marine transmissions are too rpm limited cause they were designed around diesels, Now if you turbo them, I think you can stick with a bbc to 1200 hp. (1000hp is probably more realistic though) Past that You are going to need an aftermarket LS block and 6 bolt heads other wise, you will lift the heads in a boat environment, And the turbos are going to get too big to bring in boost fast enough to make the torque down low that's needed(you can get away with more for short burst)

I would have no problem spinning an LS engine 1000-1500 rpm faster than a comparable BBC. LS Heads are Damn good from GM. The GM blocks are Strong. The Oiling system is good. (Some the pans are so shallow that are not good at keeping oil in them, and even the stock pump moves so much oil that it will suck it dry in short order. I almost always run an extra quart in LS powered anything.)

I think with any engine you have look at the strengths to cost ratios it offers and play off of them. (mercury is very good at this)

About a year ago I put together a serious business plan based on this topic. As much a I like the engine I think Its going to be a tough viable plan in the marine industry. You can forget about the tow sports market that is well served with ls based stuff. Volvo is going to have there 380hp 6.0l version out, I would expect a 430hp 6.2l version soon after. Remember Ilmor has a full line of LS engines that are not marketed towards Performance boats. So anything that directly competes here is risky at best, What if One these guys decides to flex some muscle in your target market?, You are not going to under cut Crusader,PCM or Volvo in the sub 430hp market. Even if you under cut Ilmor in the 450-600hp market, You don't have the name recognition, And you better be ready for a battle if they decide to push their 430,522, and now 570hp engines.

Imo The only lane that would make sense is Turbo LS engines. Say 600hp, 850HP and 1000hp power stops. But I still can't see moving many units even if it is a great package, and the price is right.

But lets say you ignore the above advice, Now if you want to play on the strengths use an LS3 block and heads both relatively cheap, and you get the benefits of Aluminum. Plan on a forged rotating assembly etc. The 600hp would be a 6.2l the 850 and 1000hp would be 415cid.

Now even if develop a decent power package, You have to get people to pay for it. So now you have two markets New boats and Re power.

Re-power, You have to convince people that your smaller cube turbo is better than the blower bbc engines that your customer will be considering. The Merc 1350 helps in this situation case, everyone sees the benefits of turbos. Will enough sell to make it viable? I don't Know. I decided it was to big of risk to bet my money on it.

New Boats, Are going to very tough Don't under estimate The strangle hold Mercury has. They have built allot of industry loyalty, And rightfully so they are not Just a supplier to alot of company's they are a Bank and business partner, They catch alot of flack but they do alot behind the scenes to keep the performance boat industry alive. Ilmor, arneson, Imco All have great products, but The vast majority of new builds have Mercury products in them, So what I'm saying is that unless the customer requests your product, Don't expect that your product will get installed as stocking model. It will be tough Even you offer to consign the engines until the boat sells. Hell some will expect a free set for even building a boat with your engines.

Another option to get some name recognition is to Build some engines and get them in some of the Hulls that don't get noticed as much it Could be a win/win for both companies. I can think of at least One cat, and One V manufacturer I would be after. And maybe a few more who might be interested cause they have some models that would probably do really well with a light power plant. Now you would be Betting that Entry level performance market will make a comeback.

Imo, There is one LS strength that is being completely ignored, and and more than one Pleasure boating market that would benefit from it. I'm not sure that I don't want to pursue it yet.

On a completely different Note The Ford FE stuff gets overlooked alot, You could built Aluminum 482cube SOHC engines that would be Different?

saleen385

I have been out of the marine market for more than 20yrs. now and it has changed a lot. When I brought this idea up to the owners I was thinking of BBC 1000hp and up, doesn't seem like that is the thing anymore. I sent the owners to the Miami show this weekend so I guess I'll find out if they think it is a viable option.
With 40 employees we are way over staffed, we went from building 10-12 engines a week to 4-6 engines a week. I think if we could do a couple a week that would keep some of the guys from being laid off.

Thanks for all the info guys,
Jim

professor_speed

BBC is by far the most built engine, but, that make its tough to stand out. Like it was said earlier there are a lot of builders already, and they have name recognition, You are going to need to stand out some how. I think you should look at the list presented earlier and look at what those guys bring to the table. What are you going to different?

only1adrian

lsx with twin turbo's 6lbs of boost.


Nevermind, I cant get pic to post.