Step Bottom History
12-06-2002, 12:15 AM
#91
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Tom,
T2x and I are Friends for many moons. We've both been racing since the 60's, he starting in the OPC classes and I in inboards. This thread has been interesting because there are good people, like you and T2x with strong opinions/questions, and in so many cases everyone is right, even though disagreement is apparent.
Steps, no steps, Cat or V, maybe the real point of it all is if you're happy with the boat you have, enjoy it, have a ball. I've wondered if we developed a "select a boat" valve where you had 6 selections: Just turn the valve and one moment you have a 46 Skater, the next a Batboat, the next a Ski Nautique, then a 150' Feadship and so forth. Maybe then, we'd all be satisfied
Nigel and I ran the Bat Boats when Rich and the Armada folks first brought them to APBA racing. We ran in San Diego and Fort Myers, then set the KILO record in Sarasota. I spent a bit of time with them at Lake X working on set ups and standards and remain highly impressed with the design and utility. Did we keep our lanes? Heck, the good folks I've competed with in everything from 850 hydro to Unlimiteds to Offshore have always complained about my lack of maintaining a lane...........
I believe, and Ocke will back this up, his designs were meant for the duoprop Volvo outdrive which added greater stability to the ride of the Bat design as opposed to the Merc Bravo drive. I only drove and tested them with the Bravo drive and they tended to be a bit squirelly in terms of chine walking and turn instability. However fore and aft running in a head sea or a following sea they were and are phenomenal. The instability side to side was not inherent in the hull design as it appears the current crop that Chris has put together are handling much better with the Volvo set up. When you think about it a 24' foot boat with only a Merc 377 ran 77 + MPH in a 2-3 foot chop and 20 MPH winds thru the KILO. I don't think there are many conventional V hulls or tunnels for that matter that will run that kind of speed at that length and HP. BTW, that same day the best a Super Cat could run was 119 and a Super Vee at 122, to give you an idea of how snotty the KILO conditions were.
As to steps, my pleasure boat is a stepped, notch transom, stand off boxes, delta pad bottomed Black Thunder. The only thing missing are racoon tails off the transom
When they changed to a stepped bottom from their straight Vee some 5-6 years ago, (same weight, same length), they picked up about 5-7 MPH across their product line. For example their current 46' with twin 525 Mercs runs 76 MPH with 4 people and 100 gallons of fuel.
Thus for a pleasure boat, I like the steps for greater speed, greater range and better fuel consumption, but then again I'm not racing this hull, it's our pleasure boat. Ours is a 43, triple engine and runs in the upper 90's at app. 13,500 lbs.
I believe I've crashed in both straight Vee to Step bottom, to hydro to tunnel. In every instance I can't blame the hulls as much as I can blame myself for running too hard in the wrong conditions. I think it fair to say however, that step bottomed Vee's do require different trim and attention to what you're doing when turning, moreso then a conventional Vee bottom. The back end does indeed want to swap ends on most stepped Vee's.
Then again, a conventional Vee will high side on you pretty quick as well.....................................
Tom, you have a cool boat, enjoy it, have a ball, be safe. T2x and I will ride off into the sunset, he in his cat, me in my stepped Vee, disagreeing at times, and at least from my side, highly respectful of his knowledge, wit and wisdom.
T2x and I are Friends for many moons. We've both been racing since the 60's, he starting in the OPC classes and I in inboards. This thread has been interesting because there are good people, like you and T2x with strong opinions/questions, and in so many cases everyone is right, even though disagreement is apparent.
Steps, no steps, Cat or V, maybe the real point of it all is if you're happy with the boat you have, enjoy it, have a ball. I've wondered if we developed a "select a boat" valve where you had 6 selections: Just turn the valve and one moment you have a 46 Skater, the next a Batboat, the next a Ski Nautique, then a 150' Feadship and so forth. Maybe then, we'd all be satisfied
Nigel and I ran the Bat Boats when Rich and the Armada folks first brought them to APBA racing. We ran in San Diego and Fort Myers, then set the KILO record in Sarasota. I spent a bit of time with them at Lake X working on set ups and standards and remain highly impressed with the design and utility. Did we keep our lanes? Heck, the good folks I've competed with in everything from 850 hydro to Unlimiteds to Offshore have always complained about my lack of maintaining a lane...........
I believe, and Ocke will back this up, his designs were meant for the duoprop Volvo outdrive which added greater stability to the ride of the Bat design as opposed to the Merc Bravo drive. I only drove and tested them with the Bravo drive and they tended to be a bit squirelly in terms of chine walking and turn instability. However fore and aft running in a head sea or a following sea they were and are phenomenal. The instability side to side was not inherent in the hull design as it appears the current crop that Chris has put together are handling much better with the Volvo set up. When you think about it a 24' foot boat with only a Merc 377 ran 77 + MPH in a 2-3 foot chop and 20 MPH winds thru the KILO. I don't think there are many conventional V hulls or tunnels for that matter that will run that kind of speed at that length and HP. BTW, that same day the best a Super Cat could run was 119 and a Super Vee at 122, to give you an idea of how snotty the KILO conditions were.
As to steps, my pleasure boat is a stepped, notch transom, stand off boxes, delta pad bottomed Black Thunder. The only thing missing are racoon tails off the transom
When they changed to a stepped bottom from their straight Vee some 5-6 years ago, (same weight, same length), they picked up about 5-7 MPH across their product line. For example their current 46' with twin 525 Mercs runs 76 MPH with 4 people and 100 gallons of fuel. Thus for a pleasure boat, I like the steps for greater speed, greater range and better fuel consumption, but then again I'm not racing this hull, it's our pleasure boat. Ours is a 43, triple engine and runs in the upper 90's at app. 13,500 lbs.
I believe I've crashed in both straight Vee to Step bottom, to hydro to tunnel. In every instance I can't blame the hulls as much as I can blame myself for running too hard in the wrong conditions. I think it fair to say however, that step bottomed Vee's do require different trim and attention to what you're doing when turning, moreso then a conventional Vee bottom. The back end does indeed want to swap ends on most stepped Vee's.
Then again, a conventional Vee will high side on you pretty quick as well.....................................
Tom, you have a cool boat, enjoy it, have a ball, be safe. T2x and I will ride off into the sunset, he in his cat, me in my stepped Vee, disagreeing at times, and at least from my side, highly respectful of his knowledge, wit and wisdom.
12-06-2002, 03:38 AM
#92
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SD, T2x,
Thanks for bringing the info forward, this is the type of info that makes your posts so popular.
Thanks for bringing the info forward, this is the type of info that makes your posts so popular.
12-06-2002, 09:18 AM
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SteveDavid, T2x, MikeJ, Reckless, and several more of you. There are 7229 members so far on OSO. I imagine most know more than me, but only enough to be curious. I also guess most are afraid to admit it and egg you guys on into telling us stuff. From myself and those lurkers afraid to post thank you for sharing.
This has been my favorite thread so far. It has all the elements of OSO; great info, strong opinions, banter, comedy, facts, fantasy, lack of true resolution (I still thinks steps work, but wonder about the inhearant danger), camaraderie, obvious love of boats, pictures, etc. Maybe on another thread some time we can find out the pros and cons of Cats Can't they make them with less up front so they don't blow over? Is that what you call a pickle fork?
This has been my favorite thread so far. It has all the elements of OSO; great info, strong opinions, banter, comedy, facts, fantasy, lack of true resolution (I still thinks steps work, but wonder about the inhearant danger), camaraderie, obvious love of boats, pictures, etc. Maybe on another thread some time we can find out the pros and cons of Cats
Can't they make them with less up front so they don't blow over? Is that what you call a pickle fork?
12-06-2002, 05:43 PM
#95
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Originally posted by SteveDavid
T2x,
Now wait a second, about this penis thing........
T2x,
Now wait a second, about this penis thing........
How in the world a full grown man got to your position and managed to get married even.........and still has no clue about the birds and the bees is truly a mystery.
Hint....check www.sexfordummies.com....again
T2x
12-06-2002, 05:48 PM
#96
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Originally posted by SteveDavid
Tom,
T2x and I are Friends for many moons. We've both been racing since the 60's, he starting in the OPC classes and I in inboards. This thread has been interesting because there are good people, like you and T2x with strong opinions/questions, and in so many cases everyone is right, even though disagreement is apparent.
Steps, no steps, Cat or V, maybe the real point of it all is if you're happy with the boat you have, enjoy it, have a ball. I've wondered if we developed a "select a boat" valve where you had 6 selections: Just turn the valve and one moment you have a 46 Skater, the next a Batboat, the next a Ski Nautique, then a 150' Feadship and so forth. Maybe then, we'd all be satisfied.
Tom,
T2x and I are Friends for many moons. We've both been racing since the 60's, he starting in the OPC classes and I in inboards. This thread has been interesting because there are good people, like you and T2x with strong opinions/questions, and in so many cases everyone is right, even though disagreement is apparent.
Steps, no steps, Cat or V, maybe the real point of it all is if you're happy with the boat you have, enjoy it, have a ball. I've wondered if we developed a "select a boat" valve where you had 6 selections: Just turn the valve and one moment you have a 46 Skater, the next a Batboat, the next a Ski Nautique, then a 150' Feadship and so forth. Maybe then, we'd all be satisfied.
T2x
12-07-2002, 12:57 AM
#97
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Too Old,
How'd you manage to get the pictures of T2x's baby crib? It is because of this crib design that he is the way he is. On numerous occasions, as a very young lad, this crib rolled, blew over, high sided and stuffed on more than one occasion. As a result he developed a deep and lasting mistrust of steps.
This would also explain while to this very day, he has training wheels on his Harley........................
And now you know the rest of the story...........for now
T2x: I faintly remember the birds and the bees and the potential uses for Mr. Happy. However with my ever increasing age, if the little fellow can trustfully serve his urination purpose, and once in a great while he can also find happiness with Mrs. David, then by golly, that becomes a day to remember !!
How'd you manage to get the pictures of T2x's baby crib? It is because of this crib design that he is the way he is. On numerous occasions, as a very young lad, this crib rolled, blew over, high sided and stuffed on more than one occasion. As a result he developed a deep and lasting mistrust of steps.
This would also explain while to this very day, he has training wheels on his Harley........................
And now you know the rest of the story...........for now
T2x: I faintly remember the birds and the bees and the potential uses for Mr. Happy. However with my ever increasing age, if the little fellow can trustfully serve his urination purpose, and once in a great while he can also find happiness with Mrs. David, then by golly, that becomes a day to remember !!
12-07-2002, 08:59 AM
#98
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Steve:
It was not the crib...but the falling out of the crib that created the condition that i laughingly refer to as my mindset.
By the way, for the record, the respect is indeed mutual.....and for anyone interested...Steve and I find ourselves available for conducting racing organization annual awards banquets........ We don't contribute much......but he looks good.
T2x.................surrounded by "step" children
It was not the crib...but the falling out of the crib that created the condition that i laughingly refer to as my mindset.
By the way, for the record, the respect is indeed mutual.....and for anyone interested...Steve and I find ourselves available for conducting racing organization annual awards banquets........ We don't contribute much......but he looks good.
T2x.................surrounded by "step" children
12-07-2002, 09:53 AM
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Breakthrough discovery
I have been trying to find a relationship to all of the ideas presented on this thread and believe I have come to a great discovery that puts it all into historical perspective.
The discordant points:
steps pro and con
historical perspective
cats vs V
men vs women perspective
attitude and wetted surface
Mr. Happy
Got it!
The debate started with circumcisions back in biblical days! Looked at when you get the surface wetted at the right attitude and the step is plain to see. The reason we still haven't resolved it is because to the womans perspective it really makes no difference and men can't come up with anything but lame reasons even after extensive hand laminations. I bet ribbed condoms are just another marketing department ploy.
The discordant points:
steps pro and con
historical perspective
cats vs V
men vs women perspective
attitude and wetted surface
Mr. Happy
Got it!
The debate started with circumcisions back in biblical days! Looked at when you get the surface wetted at the right attitude and the step is plain to see. The reason we still haven't resolved it is because to the womans perspective it really makes no difference and men can't come up with anything but lame reasons even after extensive hand laminations. I bet ribbed condoms are just another marketing department ploy.
12-07-2002, 10:12 AM
#100
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T2x
A while ago I built one of these; As a matter of fact this is the Picture the guy gave me to work off
Anyway the Boat I built had a Double Stepped Bottom and a Dynamic pad (I slid two strakes down towards the keel) it went off to Europe; anyway this was years before the Bat Boat got invented!!
Below Pictured an EP class (850cc) Wing Boat without steps (The only picture I have of one) like I said mine had a twin step bottom.
A while ago I built one of these; As a matter of fact this is the Picture the guy gave me to work off
Anyway the Boat I built had a Double Stepped Bottom and a Dynamic pad (I slid two strakes down towards the keel) it went off to Europe; anyway this was years before the Bat Boat got invented!!
Below Pictured an EP class (850cc) Wing Boat without steps (The only picture I have of one) like I said mine had a twin step bottom.
