Step Bottom History
12-11-2002, 08:14 AM
#141
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Re: Tom's repeated question of why steps came in, went out and came back in.
Look closely at the boats that first had steps and made them famous.....big, big, big, (for their day) very heavy, low power to weight (even with monster power) and ... stuck with the inboard propshaft inefficient prop angle and prop placement under the boat. In that era only one other set up could give competitive speed: the Hickman Sea Sled. A Sea Sled is a semi tunnel hull with surfacing props stuck out the bottom edge of the transom. (Sorry for the Sea Sled side trip now back to the point.) Even after Apel patented the three point hydro design, stepped hulls remainded competitive (in some classes) until motors able to give higher power to weight ratios were used in boats with new building techniques giving greater strength with less weight, further improving the power to weight ratios. The same thing happened across the board down to the tiniest outboards ... high power to weight - - - steps out - - - hydros in.
Now, if you were designing a less than racing-power-to-weight-ratio pleasure boat and wanted a little free speed where could you look? At racing boats with the same (but now obsolete for racing) ratios. This is where steps came back into vogue.
Fortunately for the builders the steps could be carried over to their marketing/race boats with no penalty, maybe an occaisional advantage getting over plane on an otherwise pig of a design and maybe an occaisional average speed increase with a little quicker lift off after dropping the whole bottom in the water ... three or four steps on an offshore Hyper Graphics tunnel ... marketing, marketing, marketing ...
Look closely at the boats that first had steps and made them famous.....big, big, big, (for their day) very heavy, low power to weight (even with monster power) and ... stuck with the inboard propshaft inefficient prop angle and prop placement under the boat. In that era only one other set up could give competitive speed: the Hickman Sea Sled. A Sea Sled is a semi tunnel hull with surfacing props stuck out the bottom edge of the transom. (Sorry for the Sea Sled side trip now back to the point.) Even after Apel patented the three point hydro design, stepped hulls remainded competitive (in some classes) until motors able to give higher power to weight ratios were used in boats with new building techniques giving greater strength with less weight, further improving the power to weight ratios. The same thing happened across the board down to the tiniest outboards ... high power to weight - - - steps out - - - hydros in.
Now, if you were designing a less than racing-power-to-weight-ratio pleasure boat and wanted a little free speed where could you look? At racing boats with the same (but now obsolete for racing) ratios. This is where steps came back into vogue.
Fortunately for the builders the steps could be carried over to their marketing/race boats with no penalty, maybe an occaisional advantage getting over plane on an otherwise pig of a design and maybe an occaisional average speed increase with a little quicker lift off after dropping the whole bottom in the water ... three or four steps on an offshore Hyper Graphics tunnel ... marketing, marketing, marketing ...
Last edited by Mark75H; 12-11-2002 at 09:48 AM.
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12-11-2002, 08:31 AM
#143
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Location: Granite Quarry, NC
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Originally posted by SteveDavid
Could then, T2x be the evil Cat reincarnation of Harry?
Could then, T2x be the evil Cat reincarnation of Harry?
If only I could get certain people to drink my "special" coolaid.
T2x
12-11-2002, 08:31 AM
#144
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When I get stumped (happens more and more often, lately), I go to Harry Schoell for info. I have been in the boat biz for 52 years, and I have never seen Harry's equal for the overall technical picture. Unfortunately, he is on my level as a business shrewdie (not).
12-11-2002, 10:41 AM
#146
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Mr. Offshore:
1. A lot of small businessmen are trying to eke out a living in today's economy.......That's part of the American Dream. Under no circumstances does that mean anything in terms of criticism or praise of a product...nor should it.
2. The Bat boat is unique.....as is the Hydrostream.....
3. I stand by my observations and statements...By the way, I remember Richard Granville well, and pegged him the first time I heard his spiel..........but his was not one of the boats I observed changing lanes.
4. No one was killed in a bat boat that I know of. For a Cigarette devotee to imply that is absolutely uncalled for.
5. It's okay that I am not a fan............. The design will live or die on its own merits....with or without me on board.
6. I will drive one........ but I will have to be alone in the boat,...or with a bat boat representative who doesn't speak English.( I also will not let salesmen "help" me in men's clothing stores.) Heck, I've driven everything from kneeldown hydros to full scale offshore cats..........why not........but if I have critical comments does that help your cause?
T2x......... agreeing to disagree
1. A lot of small businessmen are trying to eke out a living in today's economy.......That's part of the American Dream. Under no circumstances does that mean anything in terms of criticism or praise of a product...nor should it.
2. The Bat boat is unique.....as is the Hydrostream.....
3. I stand by my observations and statements...By the way, I remember Richard Granville well, and pegged him the first time I heard his spiel..........but his was not one of the boats I observed changing lanes.
4. No one was killed in a bat boat that I know of. For a Cigarette devotee to imply that is absolutely uncalled for.
5. It's okay that I am not a fan............. The design will live or die on its own merits....with or without me on board.
6. I will drive one........ but I will have to be alone in the boat,...or with a bat boat representative who doesn't speak English.( I also will not let salesmen "help" me in men's clothing stores.) Heck, I've driven everything from kneeldown hydros to full scale offshore cats..........why not........but if I have critical comments does that help your cause?
T2x......... agreeing to disagree
12-11-2002, 12:06 PM
#148
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Tom,
I logged onto the Step Bottom thread, Saw that Steve David decided to post some of his thoughts on the subject ( rather long) and that T2x and Brownie had also contributed, I went into my office, (really only a cubbyhole) set my desk phones to the voice mail, turned off the cell, closed the door, and sat back to read. Wow, this stuff should not be for free.
T2x, do you think you can get GJL to add his opinions? I am sure everyone would love to hear from him also.
Tom, Did you really go and read 50 of T2x’s posts? If you did you just got 25 years or so of boat racing in a few hours. Throw in Steve David and Brownie, and there is 100 combined years. Some of the people I saw lurking here in the past few days is very impressive.
ShipWrecked. Steve1 pretty much summed it up when he answered your question, The only thing he left out is, the air at the top of that list is very thin, there is only a hand full of men up there, one is named Steve Koss. Designer, tooler, laminator and builder. Whenever T2x talks about building that imaginary record-breaking Kilo setting, outboard Cat, the guy building it is Steve Koss.
Philip
I logged onto the Step Bottom thread, Saw that Steve David decided to post some of his thoughts on the subject ( rather long) and that T2x and Brownie had also contributed, I went into my office, (really only a cubbyhole) set my desk phones to the voice mail, turned off the cell, closed the door, and sat back to read. Wow, this stuff should not be for free.
T2x, do you think you can get GJL to add his opinions? I am sure everyone would love to hear from him also.
Tom, Did you really go and read 50 of T2x’s posts? If you did you just got 25 years or so of boat racing in a few hours. Throw in Steve David and Brownie, and there is 100 combined years. Some of the people I saw lurking here in the past few days is very impressive.
ShipWrecked. Steve1 pretty much summed it up when he answered your question, The only thing he left out is, the air at the top of that list is very thin, there is only a hand full of men up there, one is named Steve Koss. Designer, tooler, laminator and builder. Whenever T2x talks about building that imaginary record-breaking Kilo setting, outboard Cat, the guy building it is Steve Koss.
Philip
12-11-2002, 04:36 PM
#149
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T2X,
First and foremost you are invited to drive one of our boats any time you wish - by yourself or with a friend.
As for the quality of the boat before when Armada was building them, no one will agree with you more. That is why the seats came loose and the windshields were not up to par. One of the first calls I made when we started this venture was to George Lindner - to get the lowdown on what needed to be done to make the boats as safe as humanly possible. And the whole reason I am building the boats is because I bought a boat from Armada and was disgusted with the product they put out given the incredible design they had. I saw a product that I thought deserved someone who was going to do it right. And after our first full year on the APBA circuit, I think everyone will agree we do one heck of a job. Again, I invite you to try it for yourself. Anyone and everyone.
Chris Reindl
First and foremost you are invited to drive one of our boats any time you wish - by yourself or with a friend.
As for the quality of the boat before when Armada was building them, no one will agree with you more. That is why the seats came loose and the windshields were not up to par. One of the first calls I made when we started this venture was to George Lindner - to get the lowdown on what needed to be done to make the boats as safe as humanly possible. And the whole reason I am building the boats is because I bought a boat from Armada and was disgusted with the product they put out given the incredible design they had. I saw a product that I thought deserved someone who was going to do it right. And after our first full year on the APBA circuit, I think everyone will agree we do one heck of a job. Again, I invite you to try it for yourself. Anyone and everyone.
Chris Reindl
12-11-2002, 04:36 PM
#150
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T2X,
First and foremost you are invited to drive one of our boats any time you wish - by yourself or with a friend.
As for the quality of the boat before when Armada was building them, no one will agree with you more. That is why the seats came loose and the windshields were not up to par. One of the first calls I made when we started this venture was to George Lindner - to get the lowdown on what needed to be done to make the boats as safe as humanly possible. And the whole reason I am building the boats is because I bought a boat from Armada and was disgusted with the product they put out given the incredible design they had. I saw a product that I thought deserved someone who was going to do it right. And after our first full year on the APBA circuit, I think everyone will agree we do one heck of a job. Again, I invite you to try it for yourself. Anyone and everyone.
Chris Reindl
First and foremost you are invited to drive one of our boats any time you wish - by yourself or with a friend.
As for the quality of the boat before when Armada was building them, no one will agree with you more. That is why the seats came loose and the windshields were not up to par. One of the first calls I made when we started this venture was to George Lindner - to get the lowdown on what needed to be done to make the boats as safe as humanly possible. And the whole reason I am building the boats is because I bought a boat from Armada and was disgusted with the product they put out given the incredible design they had. I saw a product that I thought deserved someone who was going to do it right. And after our first full year on the APBA circuit, I think everyone will agree we do one heck of a job. Again, I invite you to try it for yourself. Anyone and everyone.
Chris Reindl
