Step Bottom History
12-02-2002, 04:03 PM
#41
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If it wasnt for Gentry, Reggie would still be standing around with a question mark over his head when it comes to step bottoms. Now he has dollar sighns!
12-02-2002, 05:32 PM
#43
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Correct me if I am wrong - PLEASE but I was told that my 51' Fountain INXS was the first step hull Fountain made. Of course the first time it was splashed in 1994 at the PROPPS/APBA Race in South Padre, Texas the hull cracked and had to be sent back to Reggie for repair. Anybody have any history on my INXS?
12-02-2002, 05:46 PM
#44
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Great Discussion
This type of thread is why I like OSO so much.
I think Frequency has hit on the reason I considered a step bottom boat. I like the look and sound of the offshore performance boat but do not need to go 100 mph to satisfy my boating needs. I do however want the most efficient hull I can buy that will safely satisfy that need. I think a properely designed stepped hull provides that.
Take a similarly equipped 37 AT and a Sonic 386. Same power, same amenities, the AT will go faster than the Sonic (even with the new infusion process). But what about cruising ? Take a boat (with 500 EFI's) that requires 4000 RPM to go 60 versus a boat that requires 3500 to go 60 and it is not hard to see the savings. Forget about top speed, I am talking useability and cost of operation.
I have also been in 60+ MPH turns in Formulas, Fountains, AT's, Sonics, stepped and non-step PQ's and see no difference what so ever in cornering ability. I am not racing, and don't anticipate racing (accept in a straight line). I do however put nearly 100 hours a year on a boat cruising, and the step does make a difference.
T2X, I really appreciate your comments, I think you know your stuff and respect your opinions/comments. I do not think steps help boats less than 30 feet. With anything over 350 HP they run on the outdrive, no wetted surface anyway.
I think Frequency has hit on the reason I considered a step bottom boat. I like the look and sound of the offshore performance boat but do not need to go 100 mph to satisfy my boating needs. I do however want the most efficient hull I can buy that will safely satisfy that need. I think a properely designed stepped hull provides that.
Take a similarly equipped 37 AT and a Sonic 386. Same power, same amenities, the AT will go faster than the Sonic (even with the new infusion process). But what about cruising ? Take a boat (with 500 EFI's) that requires 4000 RPM to go 60 versus a boat that requires 3500 to go 60 and it is not hard to see the savings. Forget about top speed, I am talking useability and cost of operation.
I have also been in 60+ MPH turns in Formulas, Fountains, AT's, Sonics, stepped and non-step PQ's and see no difference what so ever in cornering ability. I am not racing, and don't anticipate racing (accept in a straight line). I do however put nearly 100 hours a year on a boat cruising, and the step does make a difference.
T2X, I really appreciate your comments, I think you know your stuff and respect your opinions/comments. I do not think steps help boats less than 30 feet. With anything over 350 HP they run on the outdrive, no wetted surface anyway.
12-02-2002, 06:45 PM
#45
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If the "steps" are not that important in V's, WHY did Skater build their new V with them? They have been around a while and seem to know a little bit about speed, and i don't think they would do it "STRICTLY" for marketing, there must be some performance gains!
12-02-2002, 07:15 PM
#46
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Steps are faster.......every 30+ foot non-stepped V hull with the same power without them is slower. Some poorly designed steps are poor performers (not only in a turn).
12-02-2002, 09:55 PM
#47
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There are differences between a Sonic and an AT other than steps
.....like the deadrise of the vee...especially forward. Deeper vee hulls are inherently slower than shallower designs.
Steve Koss, I certainly respect you and Peter Hledin is peerless as a Cat designer builder. That having been said, neither of you, nor me for that matter, is perfect. Peter admits that he is learning from his vee bottom experiences, and also has to admit that the fact his new vee and current cat sponsons have the same number of steps is as much happenstance as circumstance.
My experience with the twin step Shadows left me to conclude that the Conquests (Rolling Thunder, Captain America, Jesse James 35 and 48...etc) we built at Kenny Adam's shop should have only a single step. Fact is, those boats were faster wgt/hp than the twin step Shadow/Chris Cats and I believe turned better. They handled best when we sealed off the inner step in the tunnel creating a non broken tunnel wall from bow to stern. This technique is called an air trap and is common in other forms of race boats, specifically hydroplanes. How and where to use them...I'll leave as a trade secret, but a good hull guy can figure it out....maybe.
All that having been said, Jerry Gilbreath, who I also respect greatly, felt that the Captain America boat lacked enough stern lift...due...he said to the lack of a second aft step. I thought it was a psychological reaction based on the "wisdom" of the time and we never really settled the issue conclusively. My helicopter vantage point showed no visible difference in attack angle between the two designs other than the single step seemed to accept trimming at a lower angle of attack without the speed loss due to the extra "scrubbing" from the second step.
One could conclude that no steps...or simple ground in 1/4" "slots like we used on the early tunnel boats to keep them from sucking down in the turns........ would work just as well as stepped sponsons...for top speed. As to the stepped monohulls, my belief is simple. A non step Sutphen held the kilo record until little over a year ago in the (allegedly) even playing field of Factory 2. Given whatever prop, laminate/mold edging techniques and engine refinements available to the current stepped record holders, I believe the Sutphen..or a Velocity could go at least as fast. However, That would require a major sponsorship "investment" by one or the other builders into a racing organization...... after all it's not what you can actually deliver but rather what your marketing guys say you can do...in today's "business plan" environment....or to put it more succinctly if you spend enough on ads your boat will get a LOT faster.
What did he say???????? He'll never get back on the air again!
..... Thank God.
T2x............ Never underestimating the power of simplicity
.....like the deadrise of the vee...especially forward. Deeper vee hulls are inherently slower than shallower designs.
Steve Koss, I certainly respect you and Peter Hledin is peerless as a Cat designer builder. That having been said, neither of you, nor me for that matter, is perfect. Peter admits that he is learning from his vee bottom experiences, and also has to admit that the fact his new vee and current cat sponsons have the same number of steps is as much happenstance as circumstance.
My experience with the twin step Shadows left me to conclude that the Conquests (Rolling Thunder, Captain America, Jesse James 35 and 48...etc) we built at Kenny Adam's shop should have only a single step. Fact is, those boats were faster wgt/hp than the twin step Shadow/Chris Cats and I believe turned better. They handled best when we sealed off the inner step in the tunnel creating a non broken tunnel wall from bow to stern. This technique is called an air trap and is common in other forms of race boats, specifically hydroplanes. How and where to use them...I'll leave as a trade secret, but a good hull guy can figure it out....maybe.
All that having been said, Jerry Gilbreath, who I also respect greatly, felt that the Captain America boat lacked enough stern lift...due...he said to the lack of a second aft step. I thought it was a psychological reaction based on the "wisdom" of the time and we never really settled the issue conclusively. My helicopter vantage point showed no visible difference in attack angle between the two designs other than the single step seemed to accept trimming at a lower angle of attack without the speed loss due to the extra "scrubbing" from the second step.
One could conclude that no steps...or simple ground in 1/4" "slots like we used on the early tunnel boats to keep them from sucking down in the turns........ would work just as well as stepped sponsons...for top speed. As to the stepped monohulls, my belief is simple. A non step Sutphen held the kilo record until little over a year ago in the (allegedly) even playing field of Factory 2. Given whatever prop, laminate/mold edging techniques and engine refinements available to the current stepped record holders, I believe the Sutphen..or a Velocity could go at least as fast. However, That would require a major sponsorship "investment" by one or the other builders into a racing organization...... after all it's not what you can actually deliver but rather what your marketing guys say you can do...in today's "business plan" environment....or to put it more succinctly if you spend enough on ads your boat will get a LOT faster.
What did he say???????? He'll never get back on the air again!
..... Thank God.
T2x............ Never underestimating the power of simplicity
12-02-2002, 10:11 PM
#49
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T2x you mentioned
" like the deadrise of the vee, especially forward. Deeper v hulls are inherently slower than shallower designs"
I understand this and it makes perfect sense to me. But can you explain why the Sutphen is so fast. It has a 26 degree deadrise and it seems to get mutch steeper as you go forward. Just curoius. It's one of my all time favorite boats.
Thanks Kirk
" like the deadrise of the vee, especially forward. Deeper v hulls are inherently slower than shallower designs"
I understand this and it makes perfect sense to me. But can you explain why the Sutphen is so fast. It has a 26 degree deadrise and it seems to get mutch steeper as you go forward. Just curoius. It's one of my all time favorite boats.
Thanks Kirk
12-02-2002, 10:31 PM
#50
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Re the Sutphen's speed........ The builder is traveling at 100 mph....even when at rest......
or the long constant section aft allows the boat to carry the bow and continually settle back on less wetted surface as speed increases........without a step....it's called the "Miracle of Hopatcong" and would be a lot more famous except Lourdes has a better PR firm....and more steps.
T2x
or the long constant section aft allows the boat to carry the bow and continually settle back on less wetted surface as speed increases........without a step....it's called the "Miracle of Hopatcong" and would be a lot more famous except Lourdes has a better PR firm....and more steps.
T2x
12-02-2002, 10:35 PM
#51
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Speaking of steps...Shockwave has a few of them...new design...and still gets stuck to the water....
Who said that?......there he goes......... I got him by the hair....nope, he escaped...all I have is this dreadful little furry thing.
T2x...past my bedtime
Who said that?......there he goes......... I got him by the hair....nope, he escaped...all I have is this dreadful little furry thing.
T2x...past my bedtime
12-02-2002, 11:16 PM
#52
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Steve 1 is right, most steps are poorly designed. When I look at the steps in my boat and those on some of the others I wonder if they heard of a wind tunnel much less tested in one.
From Ocke Mannerfelt:
Most of the stepped hulls currently in production were originally designed as non-stepped V-hulls. Steps have often been added to these original designs as an afterthought, and then built into existing molds. This is not the case with the B-28. From the very beginning, the B-28's transverse steps were engineered as an integral part of the boats running surface and have been strategically placed to serve specific purposes and provide excellent balance. The first step sets the angle of attack of the hull, while the second step controls the waterflow to the aft section of the hull, which carries most of the boats load. The steps are also carefully shaped to introduce air into the water under the boat. The resulting air bubbles act as ball bearings, providing a faster, less resistant running surface. Planing over a bed of foaming water reduces friction, increases speed, and benefits fuel economy.
From Ocke Mannerfelt:
Most of the stepped hulls currently in production were originally designed as non-stepped V-hulls. Steps have often been added to these original designs as an afterthought, and then built into existing molds. This is not the case with the B-28. From the very beginning, the B-28's transverse steps were engineered as an integral part of the boats running surface and have been strategically placed to serve specific purposes and provide excellent balance. The first step sets the angle of attack of the hull, while the second step controls the waterflow to the aft section of the hull, which carries most of the boats load. The steps are also carefully shaped to introduce air into the water under the boat. The resulting air bubbles act as ball bearings, providing a faster, less resistant running surface. Planing over a bed of foaming water reduces friction, increases speed, and benefits fuel economy.
12-03-2002, 02:49 AM
#53
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Steps or notches?
I think many of you are talking about notches in an otherwise straight bottom and calling them steps. In the attached picture notice that the steps change much like steps leading up a flight of stairs.
I disagree with the idea that steps only work on 30'+ boats. Although there are also other reasons my 22'8" boat runs so extremely well in rough or calm water (wings, straight strakes, speed rails, aerodynamic and hydrodynamic design), I doubt Ocke put the steps in because of his marketing department. I had and have seen many boats running on the last 18" and although they are fast they are on the edge of out of control and you can forget staying that way in rough water.
My boat runs 100 at the same angle of attack as at 70, calm or rough water, so I don't understand how the conclusion can be drawn that you have to go under 70 to make steps work. Maybe some time in a wind tunnel would help in finding the right placement, height, etc. to get it right.
Lets stop comparing bad steps that probably were designed by the marketing department or someone who did not fully design them, and consider do well designed steps make a difference. I believe yes and until I see a 23 ft. non-step boat that runs with mine in the sea or the wind tunnel I will rest my case.
I disagree with the idea that steps only work on 30'+ boats. Although there are also other reasons my 22'8" boat runs so extremely well in rough or calm water (wings, straight strakes, speed rails, aerodynamic and hydrodynamic design), I doubt Ocke put the steps in because of his marketing department. I had and have seen many boats running on the last 18" and although they are fast they are on the edge of out of control and you can forget staying that way in rough water.
My boat runs 100 at the same angle of attack as at 70, calm or rough water, so I don't understand how the conclusion can be drawn that you have to go under 70 to make steps work. Maybe some time in a wind tunnel would help in finding the right placement, height, etc. to get it right.
Lets stop comparing bad steps that probably were designed by the marketing department or someone who did not fully design them, and consider do well designed steps make a difference. I believe yes and until I see a 23 ft. non-step boat that runs with mine in the sea or the wind tunnel I will rest my case.
12-03-2002, 08:30 AM
#55
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Drawing on my vast offshore experience, gained simply by reading posts on this forum
, I too have concluded that longer, heavier boats gain the most from steps. The cool marketing photos of boats running "aired out" clearly show the steps, but the steps are ineffective at this point. Heavier boats will be running on the steps and benefit from air introduction.
In the case of smaller/lighter boats, to some extent I think speed gains were made in stepped-version hulls by accident. The result of a stepped bottom hull is a shorter transom. With a shorter transom the outdrives are better able to leverage the hull out of the water, resulting in greater speed. Anyone agree?
, I too have concluded that longer, heavier boats gain the most from steps. The cool marketing photos of boats running "aired out" clearly show the steps, but the steps are ineffective at this point. Heavier boats will be running on the steps and benefit from air introduction.In the case of smaller/lighter boats, to some extent I think speed gains were made in stepped-version hulls by accident. The result of a stepped bottom hull is a shorter transom. With a shorter transom the outdrives are better able to leverage the hull out of the water, resulting in greater speed. Anyone agree?
12-03-2002, 09:12 AM
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In the case of smaller/lighter boats, to some extent I think speed gains were made in stepped-version hulls by accident.
I would much rather be in the water with control and efficiency than loose on the last 18 inches of the boat.
12-03-2002, 10:19 AM
#57
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...... after all it's not what you can actually deliver but rather what your marketing guys say you can do...in today's "business plan" environment....or to put it more succinctly if you spend enough on ads your boat will get a LOT faster.
T2x once again well said as usual. Obviously those who put so much pride into their ownership of the "over-rated" step concept in performance pleasure boats are gonna be in denial until the cows come home. I think the comment addressing putting a step on an already existing V design says a lot too...
Tom, though I believe with the Bat boat design the step probably does the trick in that configuration with wind tunnel testing etc. I don't however believe we're gonna see that design become the rage of the pleasure performance boat genre anytime soon due to it's impracticality and basic ugliness.
T2x made another realistic point when addressing the well intended but badly thought over comparison between a Sonic and the AT. You would be essentially saying without the steps they would run identical? As well as other similar sized stepped boats? They would all run identical? Or is there other differences to be thrown into the equation?...hmmmmmm
Another point of contention is in the rough stuff. It's hard for me to realistically imagine the benefits when the trim angles, tab settings, and horizontal/vertical g-forces are so consistently askew. Also theoretically speaking, you would have to believe with a little chop the V hull becomes just as aerated (okay maybe a tad less) as a stepped hull? Don't V hulls tend to run a little better on a lightly wind-chopped surface?...
Anyway, I guess one could sum it up by saying the differences between the two Corvettes is one is silver with cloth seats and the other is red with leather. I guess red with leather looks, seems, and is almost universally thought of as being.....faster?
T2x once again well said as usual. Obviously those who put so much pride into their ownership of the "over-rated" step concept in performance pleasure boats are gonna be in denial until the cows come home. I think the comment addressing putting a step on an already existing V design says a lot too...
Tom, though I believe with the Bat boat design the step probably does the trick in that configuration with wind tunnel testing etc. I don't however believe we're gonna see that design become the rage of the pleasure performance boat genre anytime soon due to it's impracticality and basic ugliness.
T2x made another realistic point when addressing the well intended but badly thought over comparison between a Sonic and the AT. You would be essentially saying without the steps they would run identical? As well as other similar sized stepped boats? They would all run identical? Or is there other differences to be thrown into the equation?...hmmmmmm
Another point of contention is in the rough stuff. It's hard for me to realistically imagine the benefits when the trim angles, tab settings, and horizontal/vertical g-forces are so consistently askew. Also theoretically speaking, you would have to believe with a little chop the V hull becomes just as aerated (okay maybe a tad less) as a stepped hull? Don't V hulls tend to run a little better on a lightly wind-chopped surface?...
Anyway, I guess one could sum it up by saying the differences between the two Corvettes is one is silver with cloth seats and the other is red with leather. I guess red with leather looks, seems, and is almost universally thought of as being.....faster?
Last edited by Reckless32; 12-03-2002 at 10:22 AM.
12-03-2002, 02:29 PM
#58
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Stepped bottom
I don't know what year or what brand this is, but it's got to be in the 20's, sitting at our lake waiting for it's turn in the restoration shop, kinda cool though.
