Well, this is a very interesting thread. I have thought about posting and I have thought about not posting. I would like to share a few thoughts here, for what they are worth.
I believe this country was founded upon Judeo-Christian values and beliefs. I DO NOT believe that ANYONE has the right to force someone else to pray or not to pray. I do believe that we all have to resepct one another whether we believe in a God or not. I believe that governement and religion should not be mixed. I believe that children should be allowed to pray in the public school system if they choose to. If they do, they should not be stopped, teased or hindered. Conversely, those who choose not to pray need to be resepctful and deserve to be respected. I believe PARENTS need to do a beter job of raising, controlling their children, and take responsibility for their and their childrens actions. Children need to be held accountable for their actions and be taught what is right or wrong. One does not need religion to know and understand the difference. If you are of the belief that religion is the best means by which to teach a child values, the difference between right and wrong, and how to live their lives, good for you, I respect that. If I believe differently, and take my actions and those of my children (if I had any) as my responsibility I expect the same respect. People in general need to take responsibiliy their actions, whether they are adults or children. PERIOD!
Religion does not make one a good person. Religion does not make one a bad person. More wars have been faught over religion than any other purpose. Does that make it right? NO! Does that make it wrong? NO! It is what it is. There are good and bad people that are both religious and not religious. There are people that cause harm and evil in the name of religion or denouncing it. Good and evil are a matter of choice.
Choose what you wish to believe in. Just do not make it a requirement for others to follow suit. We live in the BEST COUNTRY ON THE PLANET! People have faught and died for our right to choose! Respect that, honor them, honor our flag, our republic, our pledge (even with the reference to God because God was one of the the most important reasons our founding fathers freed this great nation). Certainly helping to improve our nation on a daily basis is good. Remember, Rome was not built over night. If you do not comply with these simple tasks of honor and respect, I believe you should LEAVE RIGHT NOW and NEVER COME BACK! LONG LIVE AMERICA!
Now wait just a damned minute here, Cat! You agree with Shane when he says in essence "people should be allowed to practice what religion or lack of religion they so desire" but then you are constantly railing against my and others beliefs. WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE??????? You are doing exactly what you accuse the " hypocritical Christian Right" of doing-trying to spread your beliefs and change the way we live. PERIOD....no discussion, you cannot deny it. So, if you do agree with what Shane wrote then please practice what you preach. Stop posting about how crappy religion is, all the problems it causes, how we are so damn stupid for believing in God, etc., etc., etc. I, nor anyone on this board have ever posted an article or even a commment about how much atheism has screwed things up or why non-believers are some lower life form or any of that crap.Originally posted by catmando
What shane said.
So please, stop trying to impose your beliefs on us, live your life the way you see fit and stop deriding me for the way I live mine.
Think about it.......
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I couldn't care less what religion you practice. That's not the issue. The issue is that the christian right believes in freedom of religion, as long as it's mine. The problem is that religion and government should not be mixed, separation of church and state. Why can't you guys realize that? Go to church every day of the week, give all of your money, just don't force it on everyone. If you want to testify to others about your faith, do it. So what. Just keep it out of government. Your faith should be strong enough to stand on its own without the government's help. Where's the "more freedom, less big government and goddamn liberals" bull**** talk when religion comes up. Separation of church and state, what's the problem with that...
BTW - excellent post Shane.
Ted - "I, nor anyone on this board have ever posted an article or even a commment about how much atheism has screwed things up or why non-believers are some lower life form or any of that crap."
posted by Steve1 on page 1: "Just who gives a Crap about a liberal or an atheist or Americas lowest Life form of them all a “liberal – atheist” friggin thinks anyway??"
think about it...
Last edited by Bill272; 03-06-2003 at 07:47 AM.
America was born on biblical pricipals and values. With all due respect, I get tired of listening to others bashing God and bashing America! Yes, many times I struggle with how things are done when it comes to the government only because of personal, self centered motives that infiltrate the politcal arena with laws that are ridiculas, but I still LOVE my country! I know it's NOT a perfect world, but I love America because of the intents and principles she was born on. We are losing our heritage because some unpatriotic people want to rewrite the history books of America. It causes confusion. If you lose your heritage it's like you lose your birthright and once you lose that you have taken away the vission of what America is supposed to, created and intended to be. Those things are being taken away from us today. We need to know WHO we are and WHY we're here! We need to TAKE BACK America! Many people have NO idea of what it means to even BE an American! Here's a hint in this order----God, family, county.
God is a GREAT and GOOD God, He loves us and wants what is best for us----and the devil is a BAD devil--- he HATES you and will hate you all the way into hell! If a person realizes these two things he will know more than most theologians.
Thank God for the U.S. Marines!
...I'm still a student.
Are you guys PATRIOTIC or not, that is the issue!
I agree that church and state should be separate in that the government should not fund any church program that it would not otherwise fund wer it not provided by a church.
I agree that church and state should be separate in that the government should not endorse any particular form of religious worship as being any more valid than any other as long as it does not involve illegal or personally harmful practices.
I also feel, though, that whatever elected official is in the highest office of the subsection (country, state, city, courtroom, etc) should be allowed to express his views and, if convicted, be allowed to publically pray or express himself as his convictions dictate. Those around him should be somewhat accomodating of this without being forced or expected to join in.
We elect officials. They are either religiously convicted or they are not. We have the option to not elect a person for many reasons and can and should take into account his political as well as spiritual views. Once elected, though, he should be expected to express himself without opposition.
If we elect a Jewish man and he wishes to wear one of those little skullcap things, and it is religiously appropriate for him to do so, then we shouldn't harp on it.
If we elect a Mormon man and he wants to stock the basement of the White House with a year's worth of dried beans and bottled water, we shouldn't harp on it.
If we elect a Seventh Day Adventist and he gets shot in a minor assassination attempt, and he refuses receiving the blood necessary to keep him alive, then we shouldn't harp on it.
If we elect a radical Muslim, then we deserve what we get.
Point is, spiritualism is part of a man, not a separate "item". We should be aware of the religious convictions of the candidates we are offered and we should expect that the man will behave in a manner consistent with his convictions.
Religion separate from church and state - YES. But religion separate from churchMAN and statesMAN, No Can Do.
As far as government shuttling money towards faith-based programs? Why not? For years church programs have done lots of community work without government assistance. Church programs have worked alongside government assist programs, essentially doubling the required budget to run both operations. Why not send money to established programs that have proven to be effective. Some of these may be operated by non-religious private organizations, others by churches. They are more effective than the federal programs, so why not send assistance?
The effect is NOT endorsing a CHURCH, but funding an assist program. An effective assist program, not one of those federal programs staffed with a bunch of noncaring there-for-the-paycheck federal employees... I see no problem.
I see London, I see France...
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