Arneson on V Bottoms
11-17-2003, 05:48 PM
#61
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This has been a very interesting thread - I'm learning alot. Never realized all that about aeriating the props that way. Has that ever been applied to Bravo Drives? Would it do any benefit to have something switchable to add air? BTW, I'm claiming a portion of the patent if it ever came about.HEHE.
Bouy
Bouy
11-17-2003, 06:00 PM
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It's been tried on a #6. Have you ever seen black rubber tubes sticking from the cav plates on #6s? It usually shows up on race boats or real sharp poker run gear. It's not switchable but it allows the prop to suck some air when accelerating from standstill. It improves acceleration, especially on very fast (not quick) stuff with very tall gearing. It looks crap though.
11-17-2003, 06:47 PM
#63
Warped & Twisted Member
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Originally posted by super termoli
That looks like somebody took a sterndrive rather than a surface drive and made its X dimension variable. What I'm trying to say is that this Sage drive is clearly inspired by the #6. I'm sorry but it all looks very fragile. I bet I could break it in a day. Awesome boat, great racers but those drives have a "DIY" look about them. What is interesting is that with this drive, we have the whole spectrum covered. First we have Trimax which is not trimmable nor steerable. Just a fixed shaft, thus requiring rudders for steering. Then we have the BPM drive which is not steerable and thus requires rudders but is (slightly) trimmable. Then we have Arnesons and the likes of SDS drives which are trimmable and steerable. And finally we have the Sage drive which is trimmable, steerable and with a variable X dimension, in other words it moves all over the place. No prizes for guessing which is the most reliable. Plus, the Trimax can be set at a really shallow angle (2°) because certain design characteristics allow it to keep good handling characteristics even at this angle (cavitation control). So you can be just as fast if not faster than others while keeping it all supremely reliable. It simply NEVER broke in racing and it is fast. Look at Tommy Bahama. As far as I'm concerned, it's really the best surface drive system. I am expecting to be shot down in flames for saying this but I'll leave it at that...
That looks like somebody took a sterndrive rather than a surface drive and made its X dimension variable. What I'm trying to say is that this Sage drive is clearly inspired by the #6. I'm sorry but it all looks very fragile. I bet I could break it in a day. Awesome boat, great racers but those drives have a "DIY" look about them. What is interesting is that with this drive, we have the whole spectrum covered. First we have Trimax which is not trimmable nor steerable. Just a fixed shaft, thus requiring rudders for steering. Then we have the BPM drive which is not steerable and thus requires rudders but is (slightly) trimmable. Then we have Arnesons and the likes of SDS drives which are trimmable and steerable. And finally we have the Sage drive which is trimmable, steerable and with a variable X dimension, in other words it moves all over the place. No prizes for guessing which is the most reliable. Plus, the Trimax can be set at a really shallow angle (2°) because certain design characteristics allow it to keep good handling characteristics even at this angle (cavitation control). So you can be just as fast if not faster than others while keeping it all supremely reliable. It simply NEVER broke in racing and it is fast. Look at Tommy Bahama. As far as I'm concerned, it's really the best surface drive system. I am expecting to be shot down in flames for saying this but I'll leave it at that...
For the record super termoli ( and I'm sure that others are wondering this also ), you have no association with Trimax whatsoever, correct ? I am asking innocently, with no malice intended at all.
You have been a wealth of information on this topic, and your belief in Trimax SD's is very clear. Just want to know that you are a true user, and not a partner / investor / shareholder
11-17-2003, 06:53 PM
#64
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Re: Re: Arneson on V Bottoms
Originally posted by sean stinson
Hunter I am assuming that you are asking about your boat. I am also assuming that it is Bill Dahls black 39 Sutphen.
Hunter I am assuming that you are asking about your boat. I am also assuming that it is Bill Dahls black 39 Sutphen.
11-18-2003, 02:20 AM
#65
www.weismann.net
Gold Member
Our products speak for themselves. The dropboxes that are in Tommy Bahama are ours.
People do not pay attention to what they cannot see. That is why we make drives as well. We did the drysump. There was so much left to do in the #6 we made our own.
As for our drives we have two types here is the difference.
Propshaft above the suface (WSD) as in Lucas oil / Ettore / Ragamuffin SD stands for surface drive not shaft drive. The design is an evolution of the Kaama drive that my father designed. Built for racing. Banned.
Propshaft subsurface or sufacing (WMD) designed for high torque high hp gas- diesel- turbine stern drive. New design. Built for race/pleasure.
Shaft drive. In certain designs they are fine. Stern drives for manuverability.
As far as vee bottoms with shaft drives.
non step - aft cg - and high rake props for bow lift. You need artificial lift because of the negative angle of attack of the shaft. Buzzi ran antistuff planes on the front for lift. The best race boats with shaft drives ran the fuel in the stand off box after the transom. If you re adjust the shaft angle you should remount the engine to straighten the driveline out otherwise the drive line will fail.
There is no perfect drive. Every system has plus and minuses. We do not make a shaft drive because there are two or more companies making them. It would waist our time to re-invent the shaft. We have more toys in store for our competition to ponder.
As for Ettore stuffing S$^% happens. I told Mike (Ettore owner) we would be on the cover. Nigel has not done that.
I have some great pics of Buzzi boats inverted. Does that mean the Trimax drive is to blame as well?
pat W
People do not pay attention to what they cannot see. That is why we make drives as well. We did the drysump. There was so much left to do in the #6 we made our own.
As for our drives we have two types here is the difference.
Propshaft above the suface (WSD) as in Lucas oil / Ettore / Ragamuffin SD stands for surface drive not shaft drive. The design is an evolution of the Kaama drive that my father designed. Built for racing. Banned.
Propshaft subsurface or sufacing (WMD) designed for high torque high hp gas- diesel- turbine stern drive. New design. Built for race/pleasure.
Shaft drive. In certain designs they are fine. Stern drives for manuverability.
As far as vee bottoms with shaft drives.
non step - aft cg - and high rake props for bow lift. You need artificial lift because of the negative angle of attack of the shaft. Buzzi ran antistuff planes on the front for lift. The best race boats with shaft drives ran the fuel in the stand off box after the transom. If you re adjust the shaft angle you should remount the engine to straighten the driveline out otherwise the drive line will fail.
There is no perfect drive. Every system has plus and minuses. We do not make a shaft drive because there are two or more companies making them. It would waist our time to re-invent the shaft. We have more toys in store for our competition to ponder.
As for Ettore stuffing S$^% happens. I told Mike (Ettore owner) we would be on the cover. Nigel has not done that.
I have some great pics of Buzzi boats inverted. Does that mean the Trimax drive is to blame as well?
pat W
Last edited by shifter; 11-18-2003 at 12:03 PM.
11-18-2003, 04:47 AM
#66
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Jamie B, I really have no vested interest in ZF Trimax but people there including Buzzi are friends. But not more than some people from Mercury Europe for example. So I have no other reason for expressing my opinion than sharing my experiences and seeing what everybody else thinks. I build boats for special purposes like military, customs etc. so when we test our products we do not dial them in, we basically try to break them because we know that if we possibly can, guys who are going to be using them will do so three times faster and it will come back to us. At one point we understood that the commander of the boat we built will use it hard 100% of the time for no particular reason because a) the boat does not belong to him, b) he does not have to pay for repairs and c) because it's fun... And the only thing we have not broken is Trimax. I know it will never replace sterndrives because of the need to retool the entire transom part but it's indestructible. As for Weismann drives, I think my remarks have been verified. "There was so much left to do in the #6" means that it's an interpretation of that concept. Secondly, Buzzi's did not really use his anti-stuff fins for bow lift. He got tired of hitting docks and other boats with them and took them off to no effect on his boat's performance. He later designed a square bow end section like on the Sunseeker XS2000 which is intended to replace fins and prevent stuffing, but cannot provide any significant lift due to its design, thereby proving that lift was not the original intention. As for Ettore stuffing, I know enough to say that the incident had nothing to do with the drive system and I never said that. But everybody walked away, photos were awesome and they appeared in every mag even in Europe so it was effectively a moment of (unwanted) glory. Finally Pat W, your drives look cool: very post-modern, I mean if terminator had a boat it would probably have to have your drives on it. I never claimed it was a bad drive and that is verified by one fact: it was banned. Everything that was better than #6 was banned including Trimax. I'll leave it at that... but it's good to see people of your caliber sharing their opinion.
11-18-2003, 11:08 AM
#68
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"Hunter I am assuming that you are asking about your boat. I am also assuming that it is Bill Dahls black 39 Sutphen. I personally havent ran the 39 with arnesons but I have run the 30 with arnesons. For every pro there's a con."
Actually we have arnesons on our 39' express cat, but our 38 fountian has xr's with the built in steering. We have 572 blower motors that made 850hp at 5 lbs. My dad and I were talking about the surface drives on stepped bottom boats. He had a formula with kammas on it and did not liked the way it handled. If we blow up the drives I was thinking of doing the asd6's being they are better and I heard lots of good stuff about the stepped boats. On a cat I would not even hesitate to put on arnesons they are way way bad. Another way to swim around the drives is to put buckets over the props so as not to cut anyone. The info is great keep it coming.
Hunter
Actually we have arnesons on our 39' express cat, but our 38 fountian has xr's with the built in steering. We have 572 blower motors that made 850hp at 5 lbs. My dad and I were talking about the surface drives on stepped bottom boats. He had a formula with kammas on it and did not liked the way it handled. If we blow up the drives I was thinking of doing the asd6's being they are better and I heard lots of good stuff about the stepped boats. On a cat I would not even hesitate to put on arnesons they are way way bad. Another way to swim around the drives is to put buckets over the props so as not to cut anyone. The info is great keep it coming.
Hunter
11-18-2003, 12:58 PM
#69
1975 X-18 Donzi, Arneson
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I've been running an ASD6 on my small block chevy 18 Donzi for several years. Run's faster and smoother then the outdrive.
http://www.arneson-industries.com/Ro...tes_Donzis.jpg
Check out the "Rocker" the rocker plates can add!!!
http://www.arneson-industries.com/Ro...tes_Donzis.jpg
Check out the "Rocker" the rocker plates can add!!!
Last edited by GEOO; 11-18-2003 at 01:12 PM.
