Flipping boats? High speed turns?
12-30-2003, 08:03 PM
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Flipping boats? High speed turns?
Hello,
I just became a Platinum member, and was looking through the movies section, and found a video of some racing clips. There were a lot of boat flips in the video, and was wondering how common the flips are. I would asume the boats were getting caught in waves parallel to their hulls.
Anyone here ever flipped their boat - deep V or cat? What was the cause? The only times I've really ever had a lot of rolling is when I am near other boats or in a situation with waves parallel to the hull (But then again I'm not running 100+ like them, and have only occasionally been above 75)
Also, how fast can you turn in a Steped Deep V ? I've always come off plain or stayed just bairly on plain while turning (depending on how wide a turn-around), but about four months ago someone was out in a cat (around 38') doing about 80 down the river, and when he turned around (in a width about 2/3 mile) he never went under 40. I know cats are different beasts then Deep V's, but was wondering if I could safely go faster in a Steped V. Don't want to find out the hard way...
Thanks,
Paul
I just became a Platinum member, and was looking through the movies section, and found a video of some racing clips. There were a lot of boat flips in the video, and was wondering how common the flips are. I would asume the boats were getting caught in waves parallel to their hulls.
Anyone here ever flipped their boat - deep V or cat? What was the cause? The only times I've really ever had a lot of rolling is when I am near other boats or in a situation with waves parallel to the hull (But then again I'm not running 100+ like them, and have only occasionally been above 75)
Also, how fast can you turn in a Steped Deep V ? I've always come off plain or stayed just bairly on plain while turning (depending on how wide a turn-around), but about four months ago someone was out in a cat (around 38') doing about 80 down the river, and when he turned around (in a width about 2/3 mile) he never went under 40. I know cats are different beasts then Deep V's, but was wondering if I could safely go faster in a Steped V. Don't want to find out the hard way...
Thanks,
Paul
12-30-2003, 09:27 PM
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stepped V - 27 ft F1
I've unfortunately been tossed a few times , once at over 80mph in turn 1 / lap 5 @ The Worlds St Pete 1999. We were totally out of control running way over our heads. My throttleman forgot to fasten his helmet before the flag dropped. I guess he actually did a pretty good job considering he was throttling with one hand and holding his helmet on w/ the other. Step hulls will spin out , don't let anybody tell you they won't. Just about all accidents happen in the turns and all boats have their limits when speed vs turning come into play. You push it hard enough and you'll find the " no return" point! BH
12-30-2003, 09:51 PM
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We routinely spin out a friend's 24' step vee on purpose.
Had to get a heavy duty offshore battery mount and lagbolt an aluminum plate thru the stringers to keep from tossing the battery across the boat every time we spun. Also tore out the engine mounts and had to go to some custom solids.
A spin can be (usually is) very aggressive, and if you aren't expecting it - it is very dangerous. It's also dangerous if you ARE expecting it, but being the fools we are...
Tell us what hull you have and what power is in it and we will give you much better feedback as to what expectations to have concerning cornering.
Most of the recreational hulls on the market will safely corner normally at speeds around 40mph. At slow cruise speed (30-35) trim the drive(s) up to loosen the hull for a free riding hull - do not trim excessively, not to the point of porpoising, not to the point of prop slipping. With the trim still at the cruise position, begin slowly turning in a wide area. Tighten the turn a little at a time until the hull feels odd, or tries to porpoise.
If at any time, the hull feels like it is unstable or the back end feels odd, straighten the wheel without backing off the throttle.
Experiment at gentle speeds.
Once again, let us know what you got.
Had to get a heavy duty offshore battery mount and lagbolt an aluminum plate thru the stringers to keep from tossing the battery across the boat every time we spun. Also tore out the engine mounts and had to go to some custom solids.
A spin can be (usually is) very aggressive, and if you aren't expecting it - it is very dangerous. It's also dangerous if you ARE expecting it, but being the fools we are...
Tell us what hull you have and what power is in it and we will give you much better feedback as to what expectations to have concerning cornering.
Most of the recreational hulls on the market will safely corner normally at speeds around 40mph. At slow cruise speed (30-35) trim the drive(s) up to loosen the hull for a free riding hull - do not trim excessively, not to the point of porpoising, not to the point of prop slipping. With the trim still at the cruise position, begin slowly turning in a wide area. Tighten the turn a little at a time until the hull feels odd, or tries to porpoise.
If at any time, the hull feels like it is unstable or the back end feels odd, straighten the wheel without backing off the throttle.
Experiment at gentle speeds.
Once again, let us know what you got.
12-30-2003, 11:53 PM
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Mcollinstn,
I started the post "1977 30' Scarab Hull Stability", and "100+ deep V" - I currently have a 1987 26' Chris-Craft Scorpion with twin sb350's doing around 260hp each, with alpha 1 drives. regular tabs, and regular power steering. It will hit around 55, but due to the age of the engines (1995) / Alpha I's / hull size, I have decided to get something bigger rather than invest into the chris-craft. They are only in the 190 hour range but act old - like right now, the port engine would cut out at idle, so I had to adjust the idle on the carb just to prevent it from stoping in idle.
Old boat was a 1988 30' scarab (got it in 1990) with twin 454's doing about 450 HP each (never dyno'd them). I believe it had SSM3's, but I cannot remember. We never did much high-speed offshore running in it, mainly high-speed shots on calmer water (river, sometimes in gulf). Never had much open water experience with it; after I blew my fifth engine my wife made me sell it (1993) and I picked up the chris craft scorpion stinger in 2001. Between work / family / repairs, i've put less than 80 hours on the boat since then.
The reason I am so concerned with the flipping is it would put me out of the boating world again for a long time (not including any personal injury / boat dammage), my wife is less than supportive of the high-speed boating; she wanted me to get a pontoon boat or deck boat. RIIIIGHT I said and got the scorpion. she hasn't been on it yet, per her choice. But I want something faster (for when I am by myself or with son), and more stable (so I can get her on it).
Like I said, I have had little experience driving fast other than straigh driving with slow gradual turns (and most of that was 10 years ago). I don't want to destroy my boat, or kill myself, but I would like to step it up a knotch, so to speak (Especially when I get a new boat). Any more significant boat problems (especially a flip) would be very trying on our marriage.
Seeing as I've never experienced one or seen any sort of capsize firsthand, I was hoping to gain more understanding as to what can cause them (esp. in a deep V) and how to avoid them.
Thanks,
Paul Rohrbaugh
I started the post "1977 30' Scarab Hull Stability", and "100+ deep V" - I currently have a 1987 26' Chris-Craft Scorpion with twin sb350's doing around 260hp each, with alpha 1 drives. regular tabs, and regular power steering. It will hit around 55, but due to the age of the engines (1995) / Alpha I's / hull size, I have decided to get something bigger rather than invest into the chris-craft. They are only in the 190 hour range but act old - like right now, the port engine would cut out at idle, so I had to adjust the idle on the carb just to prevent it from stoping in idle.
Old boat was a 1988 30' scarab (got it in 1990) with twin 454's doing about 450 HP each (never dyno'd them). I believe it had SSM3's, but I cannot remember. We never did much high-speed offshore running in it, mainly high-speed shots on calmer water (river, sometimes in gulf). Never had much open water experience with it; after I blew my fifth engine my wife made me sell it (1993) and I picked up the chris craft scorpion stinger in 2001. Between work / family / repairs, i've put less than 80 hours on the boat since then.
The reason I am so concerned with the flipping is it would put me out of the boating world again for a long time (not including any personal injury / boat dammage), my wife is less than supportive of the high-speed boating; she wanted me to get a pontoon boat or deck boat. RIIIIGHT I said and got the scorpion. she hasn't been on it yet, per her choice. But I want something faster (for when I am by myself or with son), and more stable (so I can get her on it).
Like I said, I have had little experience driving fast other than straigh driving with slow gradual turns (and most of that was 10 years ago). I don't want to destroy my boat, or kill myself, but I would like to step it up a knotch, so to speak (Especially when I get a new boat). Any more significant boat problems (especially a flip) would be very trying on our marriage.
Seeing as I've never experienced one or seen any sort of capsize firsthand, I was hoping to gain more understanding as to what can cause them (esp. in a deep V) and how to avoid them.
Thanks,
Paul Rohrbaugh
12-31-2003, 12:39 AM
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I seriously advise you to abandon your quest for a 100 mph boat until you get a full year of driving a 70 mph boat in varied conditions. Quite honestly, I would advise you to stay under 60mph, but you are practically there now.
As for your Chris, it is not a stepped hull vee, it is a straight vee and (in smooth water, trimmed down, and with the power on) should be able to turn hard enough to rip the seats out of their mounts without being in danger of "flipping".
Please spend more time in your current boat, and understand that there is a "feel" for how your hull is behaving and how much hull is in contact with the water, and how well it is tracking in a turn, and how to alter your steering inputs in rough water, etc. You should learn to be able to trim your hull with your eyes closed, doing it purely by feel. This should become second nature to you before you make the mistake of seeking dangerous speeds (60 is actually a dangerous speed if you have no familiarity with the behavior and personality of your vessel) without ample experience at lower levels.
Also I advise you to stay away from cats for now, and to forget about step bottom vees - stick with straight vees and work your way up to a 75 mph straight vee before you start looking for a 100 mph project boat.
I honestly and truly and seriously hope that you understand that i am not trying to criticize you or punish you or otherwise judge you. I am scared for you and your passengers and for the others on the waterway with you.
It doesn't take skill to firewall the throttles and push a properly setup high performance boat to 100 mph in optimum water and weather conditions.
It DOES take skill and experience to:
#1) be ABLE to run 100mph in less than optimum conditions.
#2) be able to react to the many many things that can happen when going 100mph on water (which is by nature, a truly unpredictable medium)
#3) be able to KNOW when to go 100 and when NOT to go 100.
I respectfully ask you to take a step back and spend more time in your current boat, make friends with a guy who runs a 100mph boat and get rides and lessons and insight from him, and work your way up the ladder one step at a time.
m
As for your Chris, it is not a stepped hull vee, it is a straight vee and (in smooth water, trimmed down, and with the power on) should be able to turn hard enough to rip the seats out of their mounts without being in danger of "flipping".
Please spend more time in your current boat, and understand that there is a "feel" for how your hull is behaving and how much hull is in contact with the water, and how well it is tracking in a turn, and how to alter your steering inputs in rough water, etc. You should learn to be able to trim your hull with your eyes closed, doing it purely by feel. This should become second nature to you before you make the mistake of seeking dangerous speeds (60 is actually a dangerous speed if you have no familiarity with the behavior and personality of your vessel) without ample experience at lower levels.
Also I advise you to stay away from cats for now, and to forget about step bottom vees - stick with straight vees and work your way up to a 75 mph straight vee before you start looking for a 100 mph project boat.
I honestly and truly and seriously hope that you understand that i am not trying to criticize you or punish you or otherwise judge you. I am scared for you and your passengers and for the others on the waterway with you.
It doesn't take skill to firewall the throttles and push a properly setup high performance boat to 100 mph in optimum water and weather conditions.
It DOES take skill and experience to:
#1) be ABLE to run 100mph in less than optimum conditions.
#2) be able to react to the many many things that can happen when going 100mph on water (which is by nature, a truly unpredictable medium)
#3) be able to KNOW when to go 100 and when NOT to go 100.
I respectfully ask you to take a step back and spend more time in your current boat, make friends with a guy who runs a 100mph boat and get rides and lessons and insight from him, and work your way up the ladder one step at a time.
m
12-31-2003, 12:51 AM
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The old Scarab will end up having rot in the stringers and transom. It will not be as fast as the Fountain with similar power. The Fountain will have a bit more cockpit room because it is set up for Bravos and the rear seat is farther back.
The 10 meter Fountain with Bravo drives and stock 502s will be a 71-74 mph boat. It is not a stepped bottom.
I seriously doubt that your previous Scarab would run a true (GPS verified) 70. The 10 meter discussed above will certainly be a faster boat than you had years ago.
It will be fairly straightforward to drive. It will turn predictably and well. It will not break in half in the ocean.
If you have developed a good familiarity with the boat, and have learned to read the water, you should be able to run at safe speeds (45 to 60) in moderate ocean conditions (2 to 3's) without worry of "flipping". Be advised that 2 to 3's will NOT be comfortable for your wife. You will want to make sure you have calm waters for the days you try to coax her out on the boat.
The 10 meter will be infinitely more comfortable to her than your current boat.
Please exercise good sense and know your personal limitations.
m
The 10 meter Fountain with Bravo drives and stock 502s will be a 71-74 mph boat. It is not a stepped bottom.
I seriously doubt that your previous Scarab would run a true (GPS verified) 70. The 10 meter discussed above will certainly be a faster boat than you had years ago.
It will be fairly straightforward to drive. It will turn predictably and well. It will not break in half in the ocean.
If you have developed a good familiarity with the boat, and have learned to read the water, you should be able to run at safe speeds (45 to 60) in moderate ocean conditions (2 to 3's) without worry of "flipping". Be advised that 2 to 3's will NOT be comfortable for your wife. You will want to make sure you have calm waters for the days you try to coax her out on the boat.
The 10 meter will be infinitely more comfortable to her than your current boat.
Please exercise good sense and know your personal limitations.
m
12-31-2003, 10:06 AM
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there were no GPS's back then (For less than $10k), it was all done on observation and the crappy pressure speedo's. With the new boat idea, my current boat is full of problems. Electrical constantly crapping out, engine problems - right now I am pumping oil out the starbord engine because it's frothy from god knows what. Yesterday the port engine would not idle at 550 or so like normal, so I had to rase it to 700 on the carb. As soon as you put it in neutral, it was dead. It could be anything from the fuel filter to the carb, but I don't feel like taking the whole system apart right now (who knows what else will break?) - it ran fine on the river after my "Fix".
As I stated, my wife is less than supportive of boating. She doesn't want me to sell the Chris-Craft, but it's literaly falling apart, and I want to sell it as a boat rather than a hull. You turn on one light, all the others come one dimly. Honk the horn and the bilge blowers go . Whatever I end up with will probably be my boat for 10+ Years, so I want it to be capable. I am 45 now, and don't want to be embarking on this project 10 years from now. I am not planning on going out there tomorrow and opening it up to 100 as the first thing I do, I won't be able to afford that much HP to start with anywayse.
My plans, as previously stated, were to get a good hull and nice drives, and put in 540-600 CID engines, with a super-chargeable compression ratio ( 8.5:1 or so). That wouldn't be more than 450 HP, or around 75 tops. When I have the money, I'd throw on a blower and get another 100-300 HP, and take it from there.
I thought my hull WAS stepped V, but that could by my ignorance as well. Here is a picture on my son's website.
http://paulr.gotdns.com/scorpion/IMAGE002.jpg
As for my current oil problem, here is a picture of the oil under the valve cover, and the oil after we pumped it out. The pics are kinda big, but I don't have the software installed to make em smaller easily. Sorry.
http://paulr.gotdns.com/images/boat_oil/IMG_0109.JPG
http://paulr.gotdns.com/images/boat_oil/IMG_0112.JPG
The two reasons I broght up the flipping issue are 1) that video I saw and 2) the fact that two days ago while out i was inbetween & behind two cabin crusers, and was caught in their wake, which was parallel to me. There were boats behind me, so I couldn't slow down fast. We were rocking side to side a fair amount. Tried to cut the waves at 45, but the channel was too narrow an the boats too close. Why river boating sucks.
Because I've never made any long distance runs, I have never been in 6 or 8 foot seas, but I have been throttle down in 4 foot seas before in my old scarb, whether that was 65 or 80. My biggest concerns are rougher water, and rover situations like the one I said. Like you said, it comes with time, but that's time and capability my current boat doesn't have. There are stress cracks in the deck fiberglass, and I don't know what would be too much pounding for it. The lack of counter-rotation has made steering much harder then on my scarab, which I had gotten used to.
I thank you for your concern, but by the time I get my project boat going 100 I would have had a fair amount of time in it, but my current boat must go. One of the exaust risers (on the port engine) went about 4 months ago, so the other three probabily aren't far behind it. That's why I am worried about the starbord engine, it's manifold might be going too.
Thanks,
Paul
As I stated, my wife is less than supportive of boating. She doesn't want me to sell the Chris-Craft, but it's literaly falling apart, and I want to sell it as a boat rather than a hull. You turn on one light, all the others come one dimly. Honk the horn and the bilge blowers go . Whatever I end up with will probably be my boat for 10+ Years, so I want it to be capable. I am 45 now, and don't want to be embarking on this project 10 years from now. I am not planning on going out there tomorrow and opening it up to 100 as the first thing I do, I won't be able to afford that much HP to start with anywayse.
My plans, as previously stated, were to get a good hull and nice drives, and put in 540-600 CID engines, with a super-chargeable compression ratio ( 8.5:1 or so). That wouldn't be more than 450 HP, or around 75 tops. When I have the money, I'd throw on a blower and get another 100-300 HP, and take it from there.
I thought my hull WAS stepped V, but that could by my ignorance as well. Here is a picture on my son's website.
http://paulr.gotdns.com/scorpion/IMAGE002.jpg
As for my current oil problem, here is a picture of the oil under the valve cover, and the oil after we pumped it out. The pics are kinda big, but I don't have the software installed to make em smaller easily. Sorry.
http://paulr.gotdns.com/images/boat_oil/IMG_0109.JPG
http://paulr.gotdns.com/images/boat_oil/IMG_0112.JPG
The two reasons I broght up the flipping issue are 1) that video I saw and 2) the fact that two days ago while out i was inbetween & behind two cabin crusers, and was caught in their wake, which was parallel to me. There were boats behind me, so I couldn't slow down fast. We were rocking side to side a fair amount. Tried to cut the waves at 45, but the channel was too narrow an the boats too close. Why river boating sucks.
Because I've never made any long distance runs, I have never been in 6 or 8 foot seas, but I have been throttle down in 4 foot seas before in my old scarb, whether that was 65 or 80. My biggest concerns are rougher water, and rover situations like the one I said. Like you said, it comes with time, but that's time and capability my current boat doesn't have. There are stress cracks in the deck fiberglass, and I don't know what would be too much pounding for it. The lack of counter-rotation has made steering much harder then on my scarab, which I had gotten used to.
I thank you for your concern, but by the time I get my project boat going 100 I would have had a fair amount of time in it, but my current boat must go. One of the exaust risers (on the port engine) went about 4 months ago, so the other three probabily aren't far behind it. That's why I am worried about the starbord engine, it's manifold might be going too.
Thanks,
Paul
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