Gladiator or Skater
#141
arneson-industries.com
Offshoreonly Advertiser
If Mr. Luhrs wants to know what Mr. Hleden’s thoughts are on the Arneson’s then maybe he should ask Pete before posting a view on his behalf? If Pete though they were as bad as you, then why does he have drives on order?
You think an Arneson is difficult to dock, and mind you that would only be an issue if were true and the boat was only used for continuous docking, but it’s a B.S. statement. Drive one and see for yourself. There are Marina’s all over the world with boats in their slips and Arneson’s on their transoms.
Want some experience with a new style 32’ Skater with Arneson’s, call one Mr. Jeff Munchen in Cincinnati OH, 513-678-1320. He has this exact boat. Or ask Merlin 540.
As for fixing the drives and using a rudder, step into the new millennium. There has never been a more irrational beast made than a cat with a rudder, regardless of whose device turns the propellers. Docking? Turning? Slow speed maneuverability? Not!
The rhetoric of they are fine for a turbine but bad for a piston engine is an oxymoronic statement to say the least. The boat does not know what is inside the sponsons so why would the drive not work with a piston engine but work extremely well with a turbine?
Think they don’t work well with a turbine? Call ITS, in New Jersey call Mr. Fusco, or Mr. Copeland or Mr. Callan. There are far too many success stories to be considered a one off fluke.
Gas engines; call Global Marine, Nortec, Spectre or even Fountain Powerboats. Etc..
You need to look at the exact issues you stated, the steering geometry has been changed, the boats dock well and they run well with or without the aid of Rocker Plates. Hell they even work on a Chris cat! (Mark Cooper out of Vassar MI)
By the way, I sell 99% of my Rocker Plates to Mercury outdrive customers!
Now if Trader1 wants to use a Mercury product, then fine. It will cost more $, eat more HP, weigh more, place the vertical CG another foot higher in the boat and still not steer or handle any better than an Arneson.
You think an Arneson is difficult to dock, and mind you that would only be an issue if were true and the boat was only used for continuous docking, but it’s a B.S. statement. Drive one and see for yourself. There are Marina’s all over the world with boats in their slips and Arneson’s on their transoms.
Want some experience with a new style 32’ Skater with Arneson’s, call one Mr. Jeff Munchen in Cincinnati OH, 513-678-1320. He has this exact boat. Or ask Merlin 540.
As for fixing the drives and using a rudder, step into the new millennium. There has never been a more irrational beast made than a cat with a rudder, regardless of whose device turns the propellers. Docking? Turning? Slow speed maneuverability? Not!
The rhetoric of they are fine for a turbine but bad for a piston engine is an oxymoronic statement to say the least. The boat does not know what is inside the sponsons so why would the drive not work with a piston engine but work extremely well with a turbine?
Think they don’t work well with a turbine? Call ITS, in New Jersey call Mr. Fusco, or Mr. Copeland or Mr. Callan. There are far too many success stories to be considered a one off fluke.
Gas engines; call Global Marine, Nortec, Spectre or even Fountain Powerboats. Etc..
You need to look at the exact issues you stated, the steering geometry has been changed, the boats dock well and they run well with or without the aid of Rocker Plates. Hell they even work on a Chris cat! (Mark Cooper out of Vassar MI)
By the way, I sell 99% of my Rocker Plates to Mercury outdrive customers!
Now if Trader1 wants to use a Mercury product, then fine. It will cost more $, eat more HP, weigh more, place the vertical CG another foot higher in the boat and still not steer or handle any better than an Arneson.
#142
[i] But, I can not believe the 36 and 40 Skaters were running hard and couldnt keep up. [/B]
#143
Originally posted by Rik
If Mr. Luhrs wants to know what Mr. Hleden’s thoughts are on the Arneson’s then maybe he should ask Pete before posting a view on his behalf? If Pete though they were as bad as you, then why does he have drives on order?
You think an Arneson is difficult to dock, and mind you that would only be an issue if were true and the boat was only used for continuous docking, but it’s a B.S. statement. Drive one and see for yourself. There are Marina’s all over the world with boats in their slips and Arneson’s on their transoms.
Want some experience with a new style 32’ Skater with Arneson’s, call one Mr. Jeff Munchen in Cincinnati OH, 513-678-1320. He has this exact boat. Or ask Merlin 540.
As for fixing the drives and using a rudder, step into the new millennium. There has never been a more irrational beast made than a cat with a rudder, regardless of whose device turns the propellers. Docking? Turning? Slow speed maneuverability? Not!
The rhetoric of they are fine for a turbine but bad for a piston engine is an oxymoronic statement to say the least. The boat does not know what is inside the sponsons so why would the drive not work with a piston engine but work extremely well with a turbine?
Think they don’t work well with a turbine? Call ITS, in New Jersey call Mr. Fusco, or Mr. Copeland or Mr. Callan. There are far too many success stories to be considered a one off fluke.
Gas engines; call Global Marine, Nortec, Spectre or even Fountain Powerboats. Etc..
You need to look at the exact issues you stated, the steering geometry has been changed, the boats dock well and they run well with or without the aid of Rocker Plates. Hell they even work on a Chris cat! (Mark Cooper out of Vassar MI)
By the way, I sell 99% of my Rocker Plates to Mercury outdrive customers!
Now if Trader1 wants to use a Mercury product, then fine. It will cost more $, eat more HP, weigh more, place the vertical CG another foot higher in the boat and still not steer or handle any better than an Arneson.
If Mr. Luhrs wants to know what Mr. Hleden’s thoughts are on the Arneson’s then maybe he should ask Pete before posting a view on his behalf? If Pete though they were as bad as you, then why does he have drives on order?
You think an Arneson is difficult to dock, and mind you that would only be an issue if were true and the boat was only used for continuous docking, but it’s a B.S. statement. Drive one and see for yourself. There are Marina’s all over the world with boats in their slips and Arneson’s on their transoms.
Want some experience with a new style 32’ Skater with Arneson’s, call one Mr. Jeff Munchen in Cincinnati OH, 513-678-1320. He has this exact boat. Or ask Merlin 540.
As for fixing the drives and using a rudder, step into the new millennium. There has never been a more irrational beast made than a cat with a rudder, regardless of whose device turns the propellers. Docking? Turning? Slow speed maneuverability? Not!
The rhetoric of they are fine for a turbine but bad for a piston engine is an oxymoronic statement to say the least. The boat does not know what is inside the sponsons so why would the drive not work with a piston engine but work extremely well with a turbine?
Think they don’t work well with a turbine? Call ITS, in New Jersey call Mr. Fusco, or Mr. Copeland or Mr. Callan. There are far too many success stories to be considered a one off fluke.
Gas engines; call Global Marine, Nortec, Spectre or even Fountain Powerboats. Etc..
You need to look at the exact issues you stated, the steering geometry has been changed, the boats dock well and they run well with or without the aid of Rocker Plates. Hell they even work on a Chris cat! (Mark Cooper out of Vassar MI)
By the way, I sell 99% of my Rocker Plates to Mercury outdrive customers!
Now if Trader1 wants to use a Mercury product, then fine. It will cost more $, eat more HP, weigh more, place the vertical CG another foot higher in the boat and still not steer or handle any better than an Arneson.
#144
Charter Mod
Charter Member
Originally posted by Semper Fi
Lookout T2X!! RIK seems to know alot about boats also.
Lookout T2X!! RIK seems to know alot about boats also.
Nothing is worthy besides the ellusive Shadow Cat to Rich. No bias there...
#145
Originally posted by dreamboater
Sounds like it was a fun ride, any pics?
Sounds like it was a fun ride, any pics?
To answer your other questions about the cats, I am not sure how hard they ran that day. We passed the 36' tall deck Skater and did not see him again. He is running 500's for the record. He ended up breaking a drive sometime after we passed him. The 40' I never saw. I actually was expecting to get passed by him, but it never happened. I saw him at the start and that was it. i know some of the cats decided not to run to the island because of the rough water. They run up the coast to the third stop instead.
I have run at Havasu with both of the above boats in other poker runs, and they have always run hard. I would think this run would have been no different.
I don't know what else to tell you, that is what happened that day. It was rough enough that I snapped off both of my bilge pumps. Some of the other boats had interior pieces that were broken. Rough day for sure.
#146
Allergic to Nonsense
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Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Granite Quarry, NC
Posts: 5,011
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Originally posted by Rik
If Mr. Luhrs wants to know what Mr. Hleden’s thoughts are on the Arneson’s then maybe he should ask Pete before posting a view on his behalf? If Pete though they were as bad as you, then why does he have drives on order?
You think an Arneson is difficult to dock, and mind you that would only be an issue if were true and the boat was only used for continuous docking, but it’s a B.S. statement. Drive one and see for yourself. There are Marina’s all over the world with boats in their slips and Arneson’s on their transoms.
Want some experience with a new style 32’ Skater with Arneson’s, call one Mr. Jeff Munchen in Cincinnati OH, 513-678-1320. He has this exact boat. Or ask Merlin 540.
As for fixing the drives and using a rudder, step into the new millennium. There has never been a more irrational beast made than a cat with a rudder, regardless of whose device turns the propellers. Docking? Turning? Slow speed maneuverability? Not!
The rhetoric of they are fine for a turbine but bad for a piston engine is an oxymoronic statement to say the least. The boat does not know what is inside the sponsons so why would the drive not work with a piston engine but work extremely well with a turbine?
Think they don’t work well with a turbine? Call ITS, in New Jersey call Mr. Fusco, or Mr. Copeland or Mr. Callan. There are far too many success stories to be considered a one off fluke.
Gas engines; call Global Marine, Nortec, Spectre or even Fountain Powerboats. Etc..
You need to look at the exact issues you stated, the steering geometry has been changed, the boats dock well and they run well with or without the aid of Rocker Plates. Hell they even work on a Chris cat! (Mark Cooper out of Vassar MI)
By the way, I sell 99% of my Rocker Plates to Mercury outdrive customers!
Now if Trader1 wants to use a Mercury product, then fine. It will cost more $, eat more HP, weigh more, place the vertical CG another foot higher in the boat and still not steer or handle any better than an Arneson.
If Mr. Luhrs wants to know what Mr. Hleden’s thoughts are on the Arneson’s then maybe he should ask Pete before posting a view on his behalf? If Pete though they were as bad as you, then why does he have drives on order?
You think an Arneson is difficult to dock, and mind you that would only be an issue if were true and the boat was only used for continuous docking, but it’s a B.S. statement. Drive one and see for yourself. There are Marina’s all over the world with boats in their slips and Arneson’s on their transoms.
Want some experience with a new style 32’ Skater with Arneson’s, call one Mr. Jeff Munchen in Cincinnati OH, 513-678-1320. He has this exact boat. Or ask Merlin 540.
As for fixing the drives and using a rudder, step into the new millennium. There has never been a more irrational beast made than a cat with a rudder, regardless of whose device turns the propellers. Docking? Turning? Slow speed maneuverability? Not!
The rhetoric of they are fine for a turbine but bad for a piston engine is an oxymoronic statement to say the least. The boat does not know what is inside the sponsons so why would the drive not work with a piston engine but work extremely well with a turbine?
Think they don’t work well with a turbine? Call ITS, in New Jersey call Mr. Fusco, or Mr. Copeland or Mr. Callan. There are far too many success stories to be considered a one off fluke.
Gas engines; call Global Marine, Nortec, Spectre or even Fountain Powerboats. Etc..
You need to look at the exact issues you stated, the steering geometry has been changed, the boats dock well and they run well with or without the aid of Rocker Plates. Hell they even work on a Chris cat! (Mark Cooper out of Vassar MI)
By the way, I sell 99% of my Rocker Plates to Mercury outdrive customers!
Now if Trader1 wants to use a Mercury product, then fine. It will cost more $, eat more HP, weigh more, place the vertical CG another foot higher in the boat and still not steer or handle any better than an Arneson.
I agree that fixed Arnesons, Buzzi drives, BPM's or direct inboards are a better choice for Turbines...for the reasons I stated..........(In fact we used fixed drives in the 4 engine Jesse James 50 footer for the same reasons).... But, for general pleasure boating, with normal power...I'll take a Mercruiser.....and the 60 year commitment, service network, engineering, and experience they bring to the party.
Finally.......I don't sell Mercruisers.......nor any other drive..... Am I right in assuming that "Rik" is a salesman for Arneson? If so........ objectivity and profitability MAY create a conflict in this dialogue.
One more thing......... Why aren't we discussing drive options in the Cigarette...... After all ..."what's good for the goose......"
T2x............still betting a 32 Skater with #6's...is the ticket.
#147
Allergic to Nonsense
Platinum Member
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Granite Quarry, NC
Posts: 5,011
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Originally posted by cigracer38
More like T2x doesn't know everything...
Nothing is worthy besides the ellusive Shadow Cat to Rich. No bias there...
More like T2x doesn't know everything...
Nothing is worthy besides the ellusive Shadow Cat to Rich. No bias there...
For the record...the Arneson drives came out at the same time as the Shadow Cat...The #6 drives were introduced 6 years later....and, once Weismann dry sumped them..... the gear drag efficiency issue was basically solved.
T2x............. At this point, I will bow out in favor of the "experts"
#148
Charter Mod
Charter Member
Originally posted by T2x
Actually.....I passed on a chance to get a Shadow Cat for restoration...in favor of my 28 Skater. I have never stated that nothing is as worthy as a Shadow Cat...it was simply one of the first successful offshore cat designs(but is now outdated.....like me)...and anyone who can read knows my slogan on OSO has always been...... "Buy A Skater". It's interesting that even as the builder of the Shadows, I am open minded enough to accept that other designs have eclipsed it. Funny how Cigarette "loyalists" lack the same objectivity.
For the record...the Arneson drives came out at the same time as the Shadow Cat...The #6 drives were introduced 6 years later....and, once Weismann dry sumped them..... the gear drag efficiency issue was basically solved.
T2x............. At this point, I will bow out in favor of the "experts"
Actually.....I passed on a chance to get a Shadow Cat for restoration...in favor of my 28 Skater. I have never stated that nothing is as worthy as a Shadow Cat...it was simply one of the first successful offshore cat designs(but is now outdated.....like me)...and anyone who can read knows my slogan on OSO has always been...... "Buy A Skater". It's interesting that even as the builder of the Shadows, I am open minded enough to accept that other designs have eclipsed it. Funny how Cigarette "loyalists" lack the same objectivity.
For the record...the Arneson drives came out at the same time as the Shadow Cat...The #6 drives were introduced 6 years later....and, once Weismann dry sumped them..... the gear drag efficiency issue was basically solved.
T2x............. At this point, I will bow out in favor of the "experts"
Your opinions clearly point to the fact that if its a vee, it's a joke. When it comes to cats you barely give credit to most cat builders as well, even Skater. Maybe it's just the way you type it, but that is the message I receive.
As a Cigarette "loyalist" I am very objective much to your disbelief. Obviously when I want something new I look at all of the boats in Cigarettes class and compare. I am on my third one, meaning no one has shown me a reason to switch. Although, my friend Terry Sobo makes it hard at times .
No one wants you to bow out. We know your an expert. We just don't need to be reminded every time you post.
BTW: Did you know John Mullen who raced the Baja "Ofixco Special?"
#149
arneson-industries.com
Offshoreonly Advertiser
You have missed my point; the Arneson's do not require the use of the Rocker Plates in order to work effectively. The Rocker Plates are mostly used as a more efficient means of lowering the bow in the rough water conditions than a bow lifting device. Simply put they don’t cost the boater as much speeds as a conventional trim tab and the bow lift can be a good at times.
The Spectre’s, Nortec’s, Skater’s, Hustlers and such are not using any Rocker Plates; instead they are using the Mercury K-Planes. (How can that not be considered a Band Aid is a totally different issue)
Now up trimability, there is no positive trim on an Arneson, but this is true for any surface drive in the world today. Once a propeller is at the surface you cannot trim it higher to gain a mechanically leveraged positive position in the water. This applies to Bravo’s, Buzzi’s and Arnesons fixed or steerable.
With the SSM#6 drives as well as Arneson’s , when the drive is trimmed higher than the surface level, the propeller comes out of the water and they merely start slipping or blowing out as some refer to it as.
With today’s boats having been designed to run more efficiently with a higher X dimension and not needing to rely upon “Positive” trim from an outdrive, they really have designed a boat that runs very well with an Arneson Surface Drive in the process. This no more so obvious as with Fountain Powerboats, but with others as well.
Catamarans have historically run well with out the dependence of positive trim, hence the reason people say the Arnesons work well on Cats. On a Skater with SSM#6’s you will find that the fastest speeds are obtained with the drives in negative trim position. Mr. Gilbreath will even confirm this. This is basically the same propeller shaft angle as an Arneson. Go figure??
While it is true I own Arneson Industries and there is an obvious bias but not negativity towards others products. Your History with Mercury has shaped your opinion more strongly.
Through our relationship with Twin Disc, we also have a world wide presence for serviceability. Believe me, with the Internet and UPS the world is getting very small.
This thread is about the objective advantage/disadvantages of two boats. Seeing as he designed it, I wonder what Mr. Peter’s thoughts are on the Cig with Arnesons???
The Spectre’s, Nortec’s, Skater’s, Hustlers and such are not using any Rocker Plates; instead they are using the Mercury K-Planes. (How can that not be considered a Band Aid is a totally different issue)
Now up trimability, there is no positive trim on an Arneson, but this is true for any surface drive in the world today. Once a propeller is at the surface you cannot trim it higher to gain a mechanically leveraged positive position in the water. This applies to Bravo’s, Buzzi’s and Arnesons fixed or steerable.
With the SSM#6 drives as well as Arneson’s , when the drive is trimmed higher than the surface level, the propeller comes out of the water and they merely start slipping or blowing out as some refer to it as.
With today’s boats having been designed to run more efficiently with a higher X dimension and not needing to rely upon “Positive” trim from an outdrive, they really have designed a boat that runs very well with an Arneson Surface Drive in the process. This no more so obvious as with Fountain Powerboats, but with others as well.
Catamarans have historically run well with out the dependence of positive trim, hence the reason people say the Arnesons work well on Cats. On a Skater with SSM#6’s you will find that the fastest speeds are obtained with the drives in negative trim position. Mr. Gilbreath will even confirm this. This is basically the same propeller shaft angle as an Arneson. Go figure??
While it is true I own Arneson Industries and there is an obvious bias but not negativity towards others products. Your History with Mercury has shaped your opinion more strongly.
Through our relationship with Twin Disc, we also have a world wide presence for serviceability. Believe me, with the Internet and UPS the world is getting very small.
This thread is about the objective advantage/disadvantages of two boats. Seeing as he designed it, I wonder what Mr. Peter’s thoughts are on the Cig with Arnesons???
#150
VIP Member
VIP Member
Originally posted by Rik
While it is true I own Arneson Industries and there is an obvious bias but not negativity towards others products. Your History with Mercury has shaped your opinion more strongly.
This thread is about the objective advantage/disadvantages of two boats. Seeing as he designed it, I wonder what Mr. Peter’s thoughts are on the Cig with Arnesons???
While it is true I own Arneson Industries and there is an obvious bias but not negativity towards others products. Your History with Mercury has shaped your opinion more strongly.
This thread is about the objective advantage/disadvantages of two boats. Seeing as he designed it, I wonder what Mr. Peter’s thoughts are on the Cig with Arnesons???
Thanks for the post Rik!!! Your company produces a great product!