New 41 Apache At The Miami Show?
01-13-2004, 04:31 PM
#81
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Won't this ever end?
No?.. then ok. I'm going to throw something in here from an industry POV.
First of all, we have all had delays in building our new models. (we still struggle getting existing models out the door). So you can bitsch about it but that's kind of the way it goes.
Before I say anything though, they will be in competition with us ( they even reference us in one of their ads) and I'm not about to bash a competitors product.
But let's face it, they came on this board a year or so ago with a barrage of bold rhetoric and claims of the baddest, bestest, whatever the world has ever seen without so much as a legitimate drawing. And that along with constant attacking and futile defending is what stirred up this whole mess.
My advice is go build your boat. Test the hell out of it. See if your claims are just and then bring it on. But until then nobody can win this rediculous debate!
I wish them the best of luck.
TS
No?.. then ok. I'm going to throw something in here from an industry POV.
First of all, we have all had delays in building our new models. (we still struggle getting existing models out the door). So you can bitsch about it but that's kind of the way it goes.
Before I say anything though, they will be in competition with us ( they even reference us in one of their ads) and I'm not about to bash a competitors product.
But let's face it, they came on this board a year or so ago with a barrage of bold rhetoric and claims of the baddest, bestest, whatever the world has ever seen without so much as a legitimate drawing. And that along with constant attacking and futile defending is what stirred up this whole mess.
My advice is go build your boat. Test the hell out of it. See if your claims are just and then bring it on. But until then nobody can win this rediculous debate!
I wish them the best of luck.
TS
01-13-2004, 05:19 PM
#82
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Originally posted by SS930
Scalp and Apachechief,
Is it true that you were getting nervous that your boat WOULD NOT be completed on time (May, when Thad actually purchased the business) and you wanted your money back and Thad was the ONLY person capable of making sure you got your money? At that time I believe Steve1 was not involved and it was Bob’s original Miami crew that filled in the so-called steps. Right? Who designed the steps in the first place??? It wasn't Steve1! After the steps were removed (per Steve1 I believe), didn't I read the boat gained close to 5 MPH at Lake X after doing so?
Where does it say they are using a 36 for the show? Last I heard they “retired" the molds. I was under the impression that Apache (or whoever you wish to refer to them as) will not build the 36 anymore. I don't think they're trying to sell the 36's because they don't meet there standards. With that being said I think Thad decided to throw his 575 Mercs into this boat and use it for his personal use. I don't think you'll see this boat at the show for sale.
For quite awhile now I've been trying to piece together all the events that have that have taken place over the past year or two... While I agree that the new company (Apache) has made PR mistakes, I do believe they are dedicated to building the best boats they possibly can using the best construction techniques and materials available. With that being said, under these directives, I think they realized that the 36's were not built to these standards.
I'm not trying get anyone wound up, but I do believe these guys are trying to make a top notch product and if it takes time to do it, so be it. I'm not in the market for one of these boats (nor do I think I could afford a new one
), but I can tell you one thing... If I was, I would certainly give these guys a hard look because they're using nothing but the best materials, construction techniques, and they've taken a proven hull design and made it even better by retooling using CAD/CNC. Plus, you KNOW they have no choice but to make a perfect product since everybody is looking to shoot them down! And it doesn't hurt that they have plenty of financial backing with Thad involved (like him or not). I think it's only fair to let them introduce their 41 and evaluate it/them after it hits the water. I know Steve1 has taken a lot of chit about taking so long to produce said boat, but we have to keep in mind that when Thad came in he told him to start with a fresh sheet of paper and make nothing but the best. Remember Steve only has a few guys building this boat and if it takes until June to get it right, so be it. I have little doubt that what floats out of his shop will be top notch.
Scalp and Apachechief,
Is it true that you were getting nervous that your boat WOULD NOT be completed on time (May, when Thad actually purchased the business) and you wanted your money back and Thad was the ONLY person capable of making sure you got your money? At that time I believe Steve1 was not involved and it was Bob’s original Miami crew that filled in the so-called steps. Right? Who designed the steps in the first place??? It wasn't Steve1! After the steps were removed (per Steve1 I believe), didn't I read the boat gained close to 5 MPH at Lake X after doing so?
Where does it say they are using a 36 for the show? Last I heard they “retired" the molds. I was under the impression that Apache (or whoever you wish to refer to them as) will not build the 36 anymore. I don't think they're trying to sell the 36's because they don't meet there standards. With that being said I think Thad decided to throw his 575 Mercs into this boat and use it for his personal use. I don't think you'll see this boat at the show for sale.
For quite awhile now I've been trying to piece together all the events that have that have taken place over the past year or two... While I agree that the new company (Apache) has made PR mistakes, I do believe they are dedicated to building the best boats they possibly can using the best construction techniques and materials available. With that being said, under these directives, I think they realized that the 36's were not built to these standards.
I'm not trying get anyone wound up, but I do believe these guys are trying to make a top notch product and if it takes time to do it, so be it. I'm not in the market for one of these boats (nor do I think I could afford a new one
), but I can tell you one thing... If I was, I would certainly give these guys a hard look because they're using nothing but the best materials, construction techniques, and they've taken a proven hull design and made it even better by retooling using CAD/CNC. Plus, you KNOW they have no choice but to make a perfect product since everybody is looking to shoot them down! And it doesn't hurt that they have plenty of financial backing with Thad involved (like him or not). I think it's only fair to let them introduce their 41 and evaluate it/them after it hits the water. I know Steve1 has taken a lot of chit about taking so long to produce said boat, but we have to keep in mind that when Thad came in he told him to start with a fresh sheet of paper and make nothing but the best. Remember Steve only has a few guys building this boat and if it takes until June to get it right, so be it. I have little doubt that what floats out of his shop will be top notch.
SS,
I was very fortunate that the36 i ordered took as long as it did to get built. After 3 weeks of me harassing BS, Thad finally sent me a refund check. I only found out about the "defects" from Bob after I canceled.
The reason for my original post was to warn any fellow OSO'er about the used motors in that 36.
01-13-2004, 06:38 PM
#83
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Originally posted by salesmanship
Not to horn in another's thread but to answer the question posed by the honorable sgrady... Yes the 43 cat will be at the show! We'll also have a 50 cat turbine, 36 cat and 43 Vee. Come and see the show!
Not to horn in another's thread but to answer the question posed by the honorable sgrady... Yes the 43 cat will be at the show! We'll also have a 50 cat turbine, 36 cat and 43 Vee. Come and see the show!
01-13-2004, 06:40 PM
#84
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Originally posted by salesmanship
Won't this ever end?
No?.. then ok. I'm going to throw something in here from an industry POV.
First of all, we have all had delays in building our new models. (we still struggle getting existing models out the door). So you can bitsch about it but that's kind of the way it goes.
Before I say anything though, they will be in competition with us ( they even reference us in one of their ads) and I'm not about to bash a competitors product.
But let's face it, they came on this board a year or so ago with a barrage of bold rhetoric and claims of the baddest, bestest, whatever the world has ever seen without so much as a legitimate drawing. And that along with constant attacking and futile defending is what stirred up this whole mess.
My advice is go build your boat. Test the hell out of it. See if your claims are just and then bring it on. But until then nobody can win this rediculous debate!
I wish them the best of luck.
TS
Won't this ever end?
No?.. then ok. I'm going to throw something in here from an industry POV.
First of all, we have all had delays in building our new models. (we still struggle getting existing models out the door). So you can bitsch about it but that's kind of the way it goes.
Before I say anything though, they will be in competition with us ( they even reference us in one of their ads) and I'm not about to bash a competitors product.
But let's face it, they came on this board a year or so ago with a barrage of bold rhetoric and claims of the baddest, bestest, whatever the world has ever seen without so much as a legitimate drawing. And that along with constant attacking and futile defending is what stirred up this whole mess.
My advice is go build your boat. Test the hell out of it. See if your claims are just and then bring it on. But until then nobody can win this rediculous debate!
I wish them the best of luck.
TS
thats fair. I'll go along with that
01-13-2004, 06:53 PM
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Originally posted by salesmanship
Won't this ever end?
No?.. then ok. I'm going to throw something in here from an industry POV.
First of all, we have all had delays in building our new models. (we still struggle getting existing models out the door). So you can bitsch about it but that's kind of the way it goes.
Before I say anything though, they will be in competition with us ( they even reference us in one of their ads) and I'm not about to bash a competitors product.
But let's face it, they came on this board a year or so ago with a barrage of bold rhetoric and claims of the baddest, bestest, whatever the world has ever seen without so much as a legitimate drawing. And that along with constant attacking and futile defending is what stirred up this whole mess.
My advice is go build your boat. Test the hell out of it. See if your claims are just and then bring it on. But until then nobody can win this rediculous debate!
I wish them the best of luck.
TS
Won't this ever end?
No?.. then ok. I'm going to throw something in here from an industry POV.
First of all, we have all had delays in building our new models. (we still struggle getting existing models out the door). So you can bitsch about it but that's kind of the way it goes.
Before I say anything though, they will be in competition with us ( they even reference us in one of their ads) and I'm not about to bash a competitors product.
But let's face it, they came on this board a year or so ago with a barrage of bold rhetoric and claims of the baddest, bestest, whatever the world has ever seen without so much as a legitimate drawing. And that along with constant attacking and futile defending is what stirred up this whole mess.
My advice is go build your boat. Test the hell out of it. See if your claims are just and then bring it on. But until then nobody can win this rediculous debate!
I wish them the best of luck.
TS
01-13-2004, 07:09 PM
#86
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
That stand in Miami will be as bare as theire ads in powerboating, regarding new well balanced running boats.
But eventually they might have a product worth looking at. The Dragon took a while and looks very promising.
But eventually they might have a product worth looking at. The Dragon took a while and looks very promising.
01-14-2004, 03:26 AM
#87
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Originally posted by SS930
Their PR practices leave something to be desired(
), but can you blame them for being defensive since they're constantly under attack..... I just think too many on this board are quick to judge an unseen product.... I'll wait to see the finished product and decide for myself.
Their PR practices leave something to be desired(
), but can you blame them for being defensive since they're constantly under attack..... I just think too many on this board are quick to judge an unseen product.... I'll wait to see the finished product and decide for myself.
I agree. I have stayed out of this debate simply because I want to see the finished product before I make any judgments on the boat. Whether they have the Apache name or not is irrelevant when it comes to the quality of their boat. Yes, the name would make their boat much easier to market, but if they make a great boat and put together a good marketing plan, it will sell no matter what name is on it. Every other manufacturer out their started in the same place, with their very first boat. I am going to give these guys and their boat a chance before I make any judgments for myself.
01-14-2004, 03:35 AM
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Originally posted by Hot Duck
I agree. I have stayed out of this debate simply because I want to see the finished product before I make any judgments on the boat. Whether they have the Apache name or not is irrelevant when it comes to the quality of their boat. Yes, the name would make their boat much easier to market, but if they make a great boat and put together a good marketing plan, it will sell no matter what name is on it. Every other manufacturer out their started in the same place, with their very first boat. I am going to give these guys and their boat a chance before I make any judgments for myself.
I agree. I have stayed out of this debate simply because I want to see the finished product before I make any judgments on the boat. Whether they have the Apache name or not is irrelevant when it comes to the quality of their boat. Yes, the name would make their boat much easier to market, but if they make a great boat and put together a good marketing plan, it will sell no matter what name is on it. Every other manufacturer out their started in the same place, with their very first boat. I am going to give these guys and their boat a chance before I make any judgments for myself.
I would never buy a boat from a manufacturer that is so sub-class to allow employees to post on a website like this and bash potential customers. The employees and owners have ruined their market for what ever they make! I don't care if it is made from silly putty or sugar-coated ***** (shaved or not)!
01-14-2004, 06:36 AM
#89
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Originally posted by PhantomChaos
I would never buy a boat from a manufacturer that is so sub-class to allow employees to post on a website like this and bash potential customers. The employees and owners have ruined their market for what ever they make! I don't care if it is made from silly putty or sugar-coated ***** (shaved or not)!
I would never buy a boat from a manufacturer that is so sub-class to allow employees to post on a website like this and bash potential customers. The employees and owners have ruined their market for what ever they make! I don't care if it is made from silly putty or sugar-coated ***** (shaved or not)!
Well said Nort.
01-14-2004, 08:00 AM
#90
Registered
Originally posted by cashbrain
SS,
A couple of pointers and it is very obvious that you are communicating with Thad or his counterparts.
Whatever pieces you have put together, you have left out several pieces of the puzzle,which is why the Guys on OSO are not cutting them any slack.
After I sold off my interest...a year ago now..I went about my own business and Thad decided to launch an attack on me on the APACHE website(which is in violation of a non-disparaging) agreement. Next, when Bobby left..they decided it was open season on Bobby...A very respected member of this board and has done more than alot of us combined....absolutely shameful
In their eyes,OSO is not their market...if OSO is not their market..then what is?
OSO was on the hit list also...
AND btw...Bobby made more than 100 36's and I'm sure alot of the APACHE guys love hearing that their boat is sub-standard...I have been on them...stepped ones and they ran unbelievable......Bobby made a beautiful boat and there is nothing sub-standard about them
They can build any boat that they want...I cannot and will not support them....out of principal
SS,
A couple of pointers and it is very obvious that you are communicating with Thad or his counterparts.
Whatever pieces you have put together, you have left out several pieces of the puzzle,which is why the Guys on OSO are not cutting them any slack.
After I sold off my interest...a year ago now..I went about my own business and Thad decided to launch an attack on me on the APACHE website(which is in violation of a non-disparaging) agreement. Next, when Bobby left..they decided it was open season on Bobby...A very respected member of this board and has done more than alot of us combined....absolutely shameful
In their eyes,OSO is not their market...if OSO is not their market..then what is?
OSO was on the hit list also...
AND btw...Bobby made more than 100 36's and I'm sure alot of the APACHE guys love hearing that their boat is sub-standard...I have been on them...stepped ones and they ran unbelievable......Bobby made a beautiful boat and there is nothing sub-standard about them
They can build any boat that they want...I cannot and will not support them....out of principal
I think we have come to have a little bit of mutual respect for each other and I appreciate that you didn't come out and slam me for my comments. I think we both have made valid points. You are partially correct, I did send them an email. I called bull chit on the first page of this thread and again on the second page...
"Wait a minute...
41' plug??? The mold for the hull and deck were made from a Styrofoam block on the CNC, remember Steve's thread on building the 41' mold???
So what do you mean "plug"???
"It made no sense why these guys would have a plug for their 41 demo, nor did it make sense why they would show the 36 which they have openly said had issues... Let alone show the 36 with some used engines out of the owners Fountain. Since I couldn't get a answer here, I sent their company an email so I could hear it straight from the horses mouth. Someone responded with my answers. This is how I knew the 36 wasn't going to the show. Although they didn't make it clear what the status of the completed 36 is, it did sound like the boat is not for sale. I suspect Thad realized it doesn't look good for the owner of Apache (?) to have a Fountain for his personal use. With that said, if the 36 is not up to the standard they which to sell, it makes sense to use the boat for company use and call it a write-off. If I were them I wouldn't sell the boat knowing the materials and quality are not the same that will be used in there future boats, and I sure wouldn't want my first boat coming back because the strips of fiberglass that were used to fill the steps delaminated! Why take that risk? Steve1 had already said the molds were retired. All of the other information I posted was taken from OSO posts/threads... AND THERE HAS BEEN A TON OF INFO POSTED ABOUT THIS ENTIRE SITUATION! I've spend countless hours following this thing (I'm not sure why
), so it's not like I would need to talk to Thad or anyone else for this info. Hell, I've never spoken to the man. Don't care if I ever do or not.You're are also correct that I don't have all of the pieces of the Apache puzzle, I didn't see the personal attacks on their website, only the hearsay. If there were attacks on you I surely understand your bitterness towards them. I didn't see the personal attacks on Bob either, if they did post this on their web site that is really unprofessional. Keep in mind McManus did something similar to Bob back in 1986 (?) with his magazine ad (No BS) after Ben and Bob split.
I'll post it if I can find it. If they decide that OSO isn't their market, their loss, but given a FAIR chance I'm sure they would more than welcome the opportunity to get this market back. They may never, but if they were to do so they would need to do it in a warm and politically correct manor with NO BULL CHIT through a dedicated PR man. But as you know a lot of irreversible damage has already been done. As I said before, I don't think they've done a very good job with their PR work. Also, I never called the old 36's sub-standard. I just said the latest 36 that Bob made had issues and it didn't meet the standards they may want released to the public. Hell I like the old non-stepped 36, I made an offer on one last week (they refused my offer).
And for the record I have never spoken to ANYONE at this company other than through my email.
Last edited by SS930; 01-14-2004 at 08:05 AM.
