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Engine building guru ?'s

Old 09-05-2006, 08:43 PM
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Default Re: Engine building guru ?'s

Main cap bolt fatigue "could" result in main caps being out of spec.

If the assembly was lined honed properly, the specs usually remain constant unless you wipe out the main bearings.

Yes, a bent rod (especially if it has any linear twist) can cause uneven cylinder wear.

If the cylinder has no linear scatches that can be felt with your fingernail, no groove that can be felt at the top of the the bore, and it's within spec via dial bore gauge. You can finish hone that cylinder to remove any minor glaze and file fit a set of rings.

Money spent now will always result in money saved in the future.
Quality machine work is worth the additional expense and the additional downtime.
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Old 09-05-2006, 09:29 PM
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Default Re: Engine building guru ?'s

Originally Posted by TwinTurboStroker
Main cap bolt fatigue "could" result in main caps being out of spec.

If the assembly was lined honed properly, the specs usually remain constant unless you wipe out the main bearings.

Yes, a bent rod (especially if it has any linear twist) can cause uneven cylinder wear.

If the cylinder has no linear scatches that can be felt with your fingernail, no groove that can be felt at the top of the the bore, and it's within spec via dial bore gauge. You can finish hone that cylinder to remove any minor glaze and file fit a set of rings.

Money spent now will always result in money saved in the future.
Quality machine work is worth the additional expense and the additional downtime.
See thats the answer I was looking for,I paid for line boring and honing 20 hours ago,now different builder find all caps at different sizes and rear main way under,it started burning bearing with only 20 hours on it.New builder feels that this work was not performed by first guy at all.Now I have to pay twice.
One cylinder of same engine was oil soaked,new guy checked and hole is way out of round,first guy pulled bent rod out of this hole but I guess did not check it or just over looked it.There are grooves that were not removed from the cylinder wall the first time,now I have to pay again to have this cylinder sleeved it is so bad.
Thats why I'm asking if this stuff could have been done right but changed during 20 hours of use.

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Old 09-06-2006, 12:08 AM
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Default Re: Engine building guru ?'s

Nordic,were your blocks your original 502 blocks? 4 years ago I set my 502 block aside and started building a 540 using a merlin 2 aftermarket block. I ended up getting shafted on the merlin block and machine work,I ended up having a similar problem with the main caps. I bought the merlin block from a so called friend of mine,he got it from who knows where as a slight blem block. He insisted I use a "high end" machine shop that he dealt with out of town instead of the ones I trust and had used with good results before. The block was just supposed to need the cylinders finished and deck surfaced. As part of the deal of buying the block he dropped it off at Reichard racing in Owosso michigan. Turns out he talked me into using them because he knew it needed a ton of work to be straightened out because it was a merlin reject block and if I had taken it to a local shop they would have told me this before performing any work and I would have given him his piece of junk back. After waiting 4 months I finally get block back from them along with a machine work bill for 12 or 13 hundred dollars. For that price they decked block,line honed main bores,re-bored cam tunnel and finish honed cylinders,about 600-700$ worth of work locally. I wasn't thrilled with the final machine shop bill but paid it with the idea that it was top notch work.I get block back to my shop and I start doing some trial fitting of parts and measureing the work done,I measure the main caps with my dial bore gauge,#1 and #2 (the front ones),are .002 thousandths bigger than #3 and .00025 bigger than #4 and#5. I measure my 502 thats sitting on the stand next to it,the mains on it are all identical within .0002 of each other and also close to# 4& 5 on merlin block. I pull caps off both blocks,clean and re-torque them all,same measurements. The machine shop totally screwed up the align bore/hone job on the merlin block. I call them up the next day,of course they don't believe me and figure I'm some kid playing around with plastigauge and just enough knowledge to be dangerous so I make an appointment to take block back to them. Take a day off of work,drive 80 miles to their shop,unload block,they immediately measure #1 and #2,the guy admits they are "a little loose" but not past mmaximum spec,the block was 20 or 30 degrees from sitting in my truck and his bore gauge was 70 degrees from being in his heated shop. I ask him about that,claims it will make NO DIFFERENCE,first clue that these guys are UN-PROFESSIONAL. We agree to leave block there to warm up to room temp but he swears up and down its fine,just run it. I come back 6 hours later,first thing out of machinist mouth is-"we never touched your block or anything while you were gone,lets measure it". Shoves his dial bore gauge in it,# 1,2,3 are now within .0005 of each other,not .0025 off,he admits they are on the loose side but tells me again just run it,you'll be fine. I'm in disbelief that the caps were not nearly as far off as I had measured,I mean I measured them countless times and using my dial bore gauge as a comparator had clearly saw they were way off. Went home,put block in shop to warm up,let everything reached 70 degrees ambient,even used a infrared temp gun to make sure block was completely up to temp. Stuck dialbore gauge in #1 main,lo and behold it had gotten .0022-.0025 thousandths tighter than it was when it left my shop,rotated the gauge from the 12 oclock/6 oclock position to close to 9 oclock/3 oclock,it was still the same size it was when it left my shop-NOW CAP BORE WAS OUT OF ROUND .0025 The lying pricks had pulled #1&2 caps off,ground them down a couple thousandths and stuck them back on. Called them up,they refused to discuss it,said run it,it will be fine. I took it to another shop,they had to re-cut the caps and re-line bore it to get even close to being right,I ended up having to use a .010 under timing chain so much was cut out of the block.
Back to your question and my opinion on it,my stock 502 block that I measured has mains that are just about perfect,yours probably did too before the first "engine builder " got his hands on it. Unless you blew your motor up or broke a crank or something I would not expect your mains to change in 20 hours let alone 200 hours. I have read that more mains with nothing wrong with them have been screwed up by incompetent machine shops doing line boring jobs than are done right and I bet its true in your case too,Smitty

Last edited by articfriends; 09-06-2006 at 12:12 AM.
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Old 09-06-2006, 09:46 AM
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Default Re: Engine building guru ?'s

Originally Posted by articfriends
Nordic,were your blocks your original 502 blocks? 4 years ago I set my 502 block aside and started building a 540 using a merlin 2 aftermarket block. I ended up getting shafted on the merlin block and machine work,I ended up having a similar problem with the main caps. I bought the merlin block from a so called friend of mine,he got it from who knows where as a slight blem block. He insisted I use a "high end" machine shop that he dealt with out of town instead of the ones I trust and had used with good results before. The block was just supposed to need the cylinders finished and deck surfaced. As part of the deal of buying the block he dropped it off at Reichard racing in Owosso michigan. Turns out he talked me into using them because he knew it needed a ton of work to be straightened out because it was a merlin reject block and if I had taken it to a local shop they would have told me this before performing any work and I would have given him his piece of junk back. After waiting 4 months I finally get block back from them along with a machine work bill for 12 or 13 hundred dollars. For that price they decked block,line honed main bores,re-bored cam tunnel and finish honed cylinders,about 600-700$ worth of work locally. I wasn't thrilled with the final machine shop bill but paid it with the idea that it was top notch work.I get block back to my shop and I start doing some trial fitting of parts and measureing the work done,I measure the main caps with my dial bore gauge,#1 and #2 (the front ones),are .002 thousandths bigger than #3 and .00025 bigger than #4 and#5. I measure my 502 thats sitting on the stand next to it,the mains on it are all identical within .0002 of each other and also close to# 4& 5 on merlin block. I pull caps off both blocks,clean and re-torque them all,same measurements. The machine shop totally screwed up the align bore/hone job on the merlin block. I call them up the next day,of course they don't believe me and figure I'm some kid playing around with plastigauge and just enough knowledge to be dangerous so I make an appointment to take block back to them. Take a day off of work,drive 80 miles to their shop,unload block,they immediately measure #1 and #2,the guy admits they are "a little loose" but not past mmaximum spec,the block was 20 or 30 degrees from sitting in my truck and his bore gauge was 70 degrees from being in his heated shop. I ask him about that,claims it will make NO DIFFERENCE,first clue that these guys are UN-PROFESSIONAL. We agree to leave block there to warm up to room temp but he swears up and down its fine,just run it. I come back 6 hours later,first thing out of machinist mouth is-"we never touched your block or anything while you were gone,lets measure it". Shoves his dial bore gauge in it,# 1,2,3 are now within .0005 of each other,not .0025 off,he admits they are on the loose side but tells me again just run it,you'll be fine. I'm in disbelief that the caps were not nearly as far off as I had measured,I mean I measured them countless times and using my dial bore gauge as a comparator had clearly saw they were way off. Went home,put block in shop to warm up,let everything reached 70 degrees ambient,even used a infrared temp gun to make sure block was completely up to temp. Stuck dialbore gauge in #1 main,lo and behold it had gotten .0022-.0025 thousandths tighter than it was when it left my shop,rotated the gauge from the 12 oclock/6 oclock position to close to 9 oclock/3 oclock,it was still the same size it was when it left my shop-NOW CAP BORE WAS OUT OF ROUND .0025 The lying pricks had pulled #1&2 caps off,ground them down a couple thousandths and stuck them back on. Called them up,they refused to discuss it,said run it,it will be fine. I took it to another shop,they had to re-cut the caps and re-line bore it to get even close to being right,I ended up having to use a .010 under timing chain so much was cut out of the block.
Back to your question and my opinion on it,my stock 502 block that I measured has mains that are just about perfect,yours probably did too before the first "engine builder " got his hands on it. Unless you blew your motor up or broke a crank or something I would not expect your mains to change in 20 hours let alone 200 hours. I have read that more mains with nothing wrong with them have been screwed up by incompetent machine shops doing line boring jobs than are done right and I bet its true in your case too,Smitty
This is what I'm thinking also,I did get shafted in more ways then one.It seams to me that first builder builds circle track engines and not marine engines.New builder has been explaining the difference to me as we go through this project. I had no idea that there was such a difference especialy in the machining process.I guess thats why there are engine builders and marine engine builders.I have learned a valuable lesson that I hope no one ever has to go through like I did.I am paying twice for what should have been done right from the begining and have now lost almost my whole summer and boating season to a smoth talking salesman that thinks he knows how to build marine engines.

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Old 09-06-2006, 08:08 PM
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Default Re: Engine building guru ?'s

Originally Posted by nordic95
Hey pros just have a couple of questions reguarding engine machining 101.

1)If an engine block was line bored, how long of a running time before dimensions would or could change?Would all caps be the same demension?or could one or two be different?
Line BORED? not line honed? Unless they measured way out, or you changed main caps/broke something, thats rare on your motor. but if it was bored, its not a big deal IF the guy knows what he's doing. Cut the caps, bolt them up, and bore it like doing a cylinder. Should be good as new, and last forever. No change in sizes.

Can I assume that you can't say the name of the 1st builder for a reason? a locked thread from a while ago sounds familiar? So it seems that as you are talking about a NEW builder, that you did NOT get what was promised to you by the original builder. That sucks!!!
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Old 09-06-2006, 08:10 PM
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Default Re: Engine building guru ?'s

Originally Posted by nordic95
Here is a picture of the rod that came out of the damaged cylinder that was over looked.Would this cause the out of round condition that would also oil down this cylinder?This rod came out of the stock running motor during the first build.


Thanks
Nordic95
My opinion would be that the bent rod would cause excessive side load on the piston/rings which could damage the cylinder walls.
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Old 09-06-2006, 08:19 PM
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Default Re: Engine building guru ?'s

Originally Posted by nordic95
This is what I'm thinking also,I did get shafted in more ways then one.It seams to me that first builder builds circle track engines and not marine engines.New builder has been explaining the difference to me as we go through this project. I had no idea that there was such a difference especialy in the machining process.I guess thats why there are engine builders and marine engine builders.I have learned a valuable lesson that I hope no one ever has to go through like I did.I am paying twice for what should have been done right from the begining and have now lost almost my whole summer and boating season to a smoth talking salesman that thinks he knows how to build marine engines.

Nordic95
Nordic, it doesn't matter what application the engines I build are for, they all get done the same way, right. There is no excuse for a shop to do shoddy machine work. A drag or circle track engine needs top quality machine work just as much as a marine engine does. It really pi**es me off when people get screwed by bad and or over priced machine work. When I used to work in a local machine shop in the 80's and 90's, one of the biggest problems was hiring good people who care what kind of product they put out. They tell the boss "it's done" and the boss takes their word. Unfortunately, a shop owner can't check everything that goes out the door. That's why I do all the machine work and engine building in my shop.
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Old 09-06-2006, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by the duke
Line BORED? not line honed? Unless they measured way out, or you changed main caps/broke something, thats rare on your motor. but if it was bored, its not a big deal IF the guy knows what he's doing. Cut the caps, bolt them up, and bore it like doing a cylinder. Should be good as new, and last forever. No change in sizes.

Can I assume that you can't say the name of the 1st builder for a reason? a locked thread from a while ago sounds familiar? So it seems that as you are talking about a NEW builder, that you did NOT get what was promised to you by the original builder. That sucks!!!
Sounds about right to me,we did agree on a settlement,but it has cost me twice as much as that amount to fix all the f#$% ups.Did I mention the broken tool left inside for me?

Nordic95

Last edited by nordic95; 09-06-2006 at 08:52 PM.
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Old 09-06-2006, 09:01 PM
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Default Re: Engine building guru ?'s

Originally Posted by nordic95
Sounds about right to me,we did agree on a settlement,but it has cost me twice as much as that amount to fix all the f#$% ups.Did I mention the broken tool left inside for me?

Nordic95
Just what you always wanted, one of his tools worth 10 cents for the thousands that you lost.

Hopefully everone know who we are talking about, and you have saved someone else from getting burned by this jerk.
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Old 09-06-2006, 09:05 PM
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I got the broken allen wrench out in two minute.I have a feeling it may have caused an issue down the road if it fell out while running. Can you say ticking TIME BOMB.
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