SB

iTrader: (1)

So some will know more than what I just remark about here or there.

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Strip Poker 388

iTrader: (6)

thanks

AIR TIME

TTT I saw the bull**** heads on line already

stevesxm

well....yes and no. certainly the knock off industry is an issue... but it is still the reponsibility of the consumer to know what gets installed in his project.... and by "knock offs " i mean similar products with names that sound similar ... as opposed to counterfits which are fakes intentionally offered as originals.... but having said all that... you have to be aware that the vast majority ofthe electronics you buy as " american" are just chock full of off shore components and sub assemblies. and , in this day of modern manufacturing techniques, it doesn't make any difference at all who is hitting the "on" button of that
6 axis mill that just machined that head casting....

the simple fact is that i have had every kind of machine tool and god knows what else.... and if you are asking me if my GENUINE bridgeport was a better piece than my taiwan clones... well yes... maybe... but at 4 times the price ? no. once set up properly and "blueprinted" which took a dayor two, the offshore pieces worked just fine and would run the same tolerances at the "real one"... same with the lathes etc...

now... i have never used any of the offshore heads...and if the prices are close to the 'real" ones.... then , for sure, you stay w/ oem....however....i would wonder and might actually ask some of these oem guys, the source for their raw castings... i think you might be surprised at the answers (assuming they tell you the truth) ...and until i started to see a genuine (not anecdotal folklore) pattern of failures of the "clones" then they might just be ok.... and just because they are american, doesn't guarantee ANYTHING...just look at the recent camshaft issues and the amount of BS deseminated by those vaunted "tech lines"

this whole thing smacks of protectionism... the same thing the auto industry did w/jap cars... right up until the jap cars simply proved themselves so good that they put
detroit essentially out of business...

before you slam these products, i suggest you actually do some subjective testing.... you might just find that its not that they are "cheap" just that you have been getting screwed for years on the prices of the us made stuff.... do you REALLY think a simple vane type fuel pump should be 450 $ ? REALLY ? and ill bet you 20 bucks american , that the motor thats in it came from one of your "offshore " countries that you hate so much...

if i was still in the business i would have a pair of these heads on my bench the instant they hit the market. its just dumb to guess at stuff when you can actually know the answer.

SB

iTrader: (1)

Back to cyl heads + such.

Who does the R&D that gives us great cylinder heads ?

The US salesman or Ching Ling that casts/machines them ?

or

Tony Mamo + crew ? The Brothertons + crew ? Maskin + crew ? Bill Mitchell + crew ? Ray Franks and crew ? Darrin Morgan + crew ? Vic Edelbrock + crew ? Carl Foltz and crew ? Outsiders that help design/machine/etc them - Sonny Leonard + crew, Joe Petelle + crew, M2 and crew, Chapman Racing and crew, Linenfelter, Smokey Yunick, on and on and on and on.

Does Mr or Mrs Ching Ling and Mr Head of Sales go to races / events and work with top teams to keep coming out with better stuff ? Do they spend countless hours week in and week out developing new stuff ?

No, they don't ! So why take the $$$$ away from these companies that do ?

R&D takes a huge amount of $$$ and time. Take that money away and we don't move further ahead.

The true Pioneers of our sports should be compensated enough that they remain pioneers and also be around to help create new pioneers.

Yes, many of our American companies use/contract chinese companies. I don't agree with it but atleast they can oversee and check quality of stuff. Do they get burned sometimes ? Yes. Do they learn from this ? Yes. Do they have a # to call ? yes !!! Can we get them to figure out what went wrong if something ? Yes.

Go call Mr Ebay Head of Sales or Mr / Mrs Ching Ling - see where you get.

Okay - before I wear out my keyboard buttons I'll stop.

Knowledge helps us make better decisions. I hope I've provided more knowledge to help everyone make more knowledgeable decisions, either way you choose.

bcarpman

I'm all for free trade, and I'm all for rewarding those who do the research/development, and I was even looking at a no-name brand forged crank for my budget 496 buildup. Chances are, this crank probably comes from the same factory as any other forged crank. (Although I'm still iffy on this)

However heads and intakes are a different matter. You can copy an existing design all you want, but unless you measure the port/runners with some very expensive equipment, what you're getting is NOT the same thing. Flow will be way off even if they look the same. My guess is that if you put an Edelbrock head and a knockoff on a flow bench, you'd be VERY disatisfied with the knockoff.

Big Block Billy

I've been using GLM exhaust manifolds and swear by them, and they are made in China. They are galvanized and also powdercoated, and out flow an oem manifold, as well as offer 30 % more cooling area in the manifold which makes it last longer, because heat is a catlyst in corrosion.
They were not designed by Mrs Ling, or Mr Ching.
Companies like Sierra, Aqua Power, Barr , And Osco should be embarrased because all of their manifolds belong on the scrap pile !!!
I think you guys are right about heads and other parts that exact high tolerances and, other issues like stresses strain etc.

stevesxm

well... 10 years ago a three coordinate axis digital measureing table was expensive... no more.... and that is how all the nc programing for this stuff starts... but that is neither here nor there.... all i am saying is that the FACT that the products originate off shore, does NOT condemn them to mediocrity automatically. as for your r and d, you miss the very obvious point that everyone in that competive arena ( myself included) would steal every single good idea we could... as do all the individuals you mention.... and ill bet you the SAME 20 bucks again that if those guys can get like kind and quality castings or offshore machine work done cheaper than here... then thats where they will come from...

i don't see any of them so stupid as to say... gee ill just run my business into the ground so i can over pay for castings and machine work. these are not dinosaur days anymore.... an american engineer can punch in a program in LA and a machine tool in shanghai starts up and makes the prototype while you and i are sleeping... and its on his desk in 48 hours to look at...

these are not the 50's anymore with guys with cast iron dust up their noses grinding junk yard castings at 3am... the days of guess work are long gone for those individuals that will take the time to dump the folklore and voodoo and look at the science. not very romantic i know... but the math dictates the answers.... and the machine tools and casting plants can be where ever there is electricty and fuel and someone to push the on button.

so...just get over it. try the products and judge them on their technical merit and suitability to your needs... not the " made in" stamp

Kidnova

I'm not familiar with manufacturing processes of heads, cranks, etc. But have been privvy to a bit of info on power tools (construction trade) produced "over seas". A few years ago I was informed by a friend who happens to be a Delta power tool rep. that, Delta, Jet, Powermatic, and a host of other tool manufactures, manufacture many if not most of their tools "over seas". Mostly Taiwan. And, the quality of the product greatly depends on the engineers, or number of engineers from the company producing/selling the tools, that are ON SITE at the over seas facility. And the quality of the product is also dictated by the tolerances allowed and or specified by the company. I expect that engine components manufactured over seas are subject to similar "scrutiny". Given the fact that the companies who are selling these products are having them manufactured in Taiwan (or wherever over seas), their purpose is of course to save $$. That said, I would have to believe that they are requiring minimum tolerances, just enough to get by. So maybe some of these parts are ok, but also, maybe not. It depends on how much/well the factory employees (who likely get paid squat) are being supervised.


"so...just get over it. try the products and judge them on their technical merit and suitability to your needs... not the " made in" stamp"

You're kidding.....right? That might be fine in/for your business. You can use a Tai lath or Tai CNC equipment to make a piece, then check the product out for yourself. But why take a chance on putting parts in/on your engine that, if they fail, could or would, cause the destruction of the engine?? In the end, it's much more sensible, logical, and cost effective, to use a PROVEN product and or part.

JMHO

SB

iTrader: (1)

stevesxm - your kidding ....right ?

BTW: This Chinese thing I started is about the subject as found in that article. Piracy,misrepresntation, lying, and then undermining those that are truly the pioneers of the industry is immoral and illegal.

If you think immoral/illegal practices are just fine for business, please tell me the name of your business so I can stay away. I can't keep others from you, but atleast I can give them a heads up.

Go tell JimV to push a button. Yeh, friggin right. Mathmatics and science.. Funny.. Computer modeling cyl head ports + comb chambers has helped but has also hurt. It's another tool that does not tell all. Back to the gurus/pioneers to find new ways of making more power or effecient. Pushing a button ain't gonna work here. Yes, I said "ain't" because I'm a hillbilly from the mountains.

Don't take this too personal - you just got me fired up a little. I'll be fine.