kennyo

Amen Brother!! You don't read about boats in physics books because they defy the natural laws of everything!

Chris Sunkin

It all works great on paper. Bolting it together and having it live is a different story.

Blue242

Tunertech,

Thanks, yes, science is good..! (And I'm a finance guy..!)


Hi Smtty,

I have no doubt about you running your engines for the time you state. I have also run many supercharged and turbocharged engines for more than 8 years, and my current engine builder for this application has been doing it for more than 40 years. I am in no way taking this forum as a "Well, I have done this for X number of years, so I have to be right, and you have to be wrong," or vice versa.

However, I am most certainly asking everyone who makes a claim to explain their claim to so we all can learn, and benefit from their experience. There is a great deal of good information on this forum, and also a lot of opinion. After dissecting every engine that I have been involved with, the physics has yet to date to prove faulty to be able to calculate the output of the motors.

If someone is doing something that has never been done before, I am the first in line to say to them, this is great, please explain how you did it so I can learn from you..! There are many many variables involved in engines, and I cannot see how someone can say X% or Y% wear on the motor from just supercharging and be correct. I want more details, as there is much more involved.

My engine will not be dynoed on an engine dyno. There is a much better solution for me, as I have 2 lakes fairly close by, and as I am building a custom EFI application with full programability and control over the motor, I will "dyno" & tune my engine in my boat on the water. Engine dyno whether it is an inertia, or water brake, is only going to measure a steady state loading on the engine.

With a datalogger and my laptop, I will be able to tune my application to my satisfaction in the boat. No problem measuring load and other in water factors, and adjust for them on the fly. And, I will be doing it WITHOUT using the Motec M48 that I almost bought. I would have loved to have EGT's in the CMI headers, but I have settled for dual wideband oxygen sensors instead. CMI is modifying the pipes as I write this per Dave @ CMI.

Granted, I am also having some issues with the Procharger people, as they will not release a heat gain chart to me, so I am not able to calculate as much as I want to using the M1 compressor. In which case, I could always switch to a Vortech, and use a compressor that I can have the heat gain and flow map, and calculate the information I want. However, I think I can compensate with the intercooler design.

(Yes, I will be building a custom Intercooler as well, as the bar and plate in my opinion is too restrictive with its pressure drop, and not as efficient as I would like.)

In addition, I will be building another engine from scratch than the 588 I posted about. I ran into some issues with the block, I was told it is a Gen 6, and it is not. It is a Bowtie CNC Mark 4 Tall Deck, and I need a Gen 5 or Gen 6 Block to run my application as I want to. Nothing wrong with the block or engine, but it just won't work for me in MY design parameters.

I am not a Chevy expert, but I know how to design and build engines. Thanks to my engine builder who has done many Chevy motors, he caught it before making more progress. Entirely my fault, as I bought the block from someone who swore to me that it was a Gen 6. So, I now have an extra engine that I will be selling off.

Second, I am doing something that is different to what I see most others on this and other forums are doing. I am not doing a bolt on application. I am building something to work based on the design and operating parameters I specified. A complete system has not been done the way I wanted it done by anyone to date to my knowledge except on maybe a pro race team with unlimited budget. Even then, I don't think it has been done in the same way.

This is also why I have to ask very hard scientific questions. There is too much marketing, and more opinion based on non scientific data and fact. The pros will not give up their competitive advantage secrets. But, with a bit of research, and some persistence, you will be amazed how much you can learn from the pro racers just by watching them and knowing what to look for. Laguna Seca is very close to my home, and I have spent a bit of time there for many years observing and chatting with INDY, IMSA, and other pro race teams.

Anyway, back to the point befor I get too far off track. When the system is done, I will be happy to let you know what it looks like, and what it does. If you are ever out in California, I will also be happy to show it to you.

This is not a business for me, just an idea I had to repower my old boat in a certain way that had not been done before. I decided to build it my way, as no one was able to give me a solution the way I wanted it done. GM, Merc, ASM, no one...!



R

kennyo

I had Bell Intercooler in TX build my I/C using my 504 tanks. They used a water to air core instead of the junk Procharger uses. It turned out great. for less than a new 504.

Blue242

Kenyo,

I like Corky Bell's work, and think his company does some great things.. I learned a lot from his research, publishings, and also trying some things on some cars I had fun with.

The cooler I am going to use is entrely different. I came to the same conclusion after looking at the stock Procharger cooler... Junk...! By the way, my Procharger unit is an AWIC. However, I'm going to use a different core and tank setup..

Your setup looks good. I would place the hoses differently so they had more gentle turns, and possibly less total turns to the intake. Not criticizing your system, just a comment.

Maybe you should buy my HP 500 EFI setup, and have less bends in the piping...! Bell would maybe agree on the bends restricting flow... LOL..!

Anyway, Funny comment you made about Physics and boats and engines.. I'm sure if you called up Corky Bell in TX, and had a chat with him, he would agree that what I say is true. You even spent your money with the guy, support his product, and claim there was no science involved in his company making your intercooler.. Give him a call, and I'm sure he will tell you very different.



R

Turbojack

Why not go with a Rtech setup. All the work has already been done. Call Tom and he will give you all the information you will need.

Procharger willl not give you a compressor map. I have tried for years. First they told me after lawsuit with Vortec they would, then that changed.

Answer to your orginal question is, motor can last as long as a NA. All based on driving. With a supercharged engine you will have a larger prop so the motor will be turning less RPM's then if NA at same speed.

As was explanied to me one time. "A motor is like a bucket full of water. The harder you run it the faster the water leaves the bucket. When all the water is out of the bucket it is time to rebuild the engine. "

The question should be: If you have two motors one supercharged and one NA and both are putting out the same HP, in exact same boat, and are both run exactly the same, which on will last longer?

I wll take my bet on the correctly set up supercharged engine.

Blue242

Hi Turbojack,

I have had a look at the R-Tech setup. I like the way their stuff is set up in terms of layout. However, I am not happy with the way their intercooler is packaged, the inherentflow restrictions that I see from the pictures of the inside of their cooler, nor the core they use in their system. My design is similar, but the core is totally different, and will be a smaller package than R-Tech.

However, they also explain that they only changed the intercooler to their design, and got something like 80 HP more using a similar compressor. So, it would also support my theory about heat management, as well as several other engineers I spoken to and dealt with over the years.

As far as ATI-Procharger goes, they tried to sing me the same song and dance as you, and I told them that they are not helping me, but selling stuff to a bunch of amateurs who do not know what they are doing, and buy into the bolt on only stuff without understanding what the design requirements are, and how a motor should be sepcified and built..

Anyway, I told them I need the compressor heat gain map to figure out how much heat needs to be taken out from the air charge, so I can properly size the intercooler, and compensate for the pressure drop across the core of the IC and a few other things.

They said their IC's are sized appropriately for the hot rod community, and they said I could always measure it with a thermocouple.

I then told them that I was not buying that bunch of baloney, and that any decent engineer worth anything would say that the design specifications and limitations would need to be seen BEFORE the motor was built.. If I did it after the motor was built, and the motor blew up from detonation because their IC was a piece of junk, then would they buy me a new motor? Of course NOT...!!!

Then the tech finally backed off and said I was right, but the company policy and engineering was not going to release the information, but they were working on it, as several people were asking, but they had to say the standard blah, blah, blah as they were instructed to do so by management.

All a bunch of BS... Too much marketing by these clowns..

Anyway, nuff said.

Oh, the SC VS NA setup, the SC motor should last longer, I agree with you, as the NA motor will have to be stressed higher to produce the same power as the SC motor all other things being equal.

Of course, two identical motors are not the same... Depends on how they were built, and by whom...!

R

JasonSmith

Yo, tunertec. When you headded my way with your laptop?

tunertech

I am planning on next weekend. How is your schedule?

tunertech

Blue242....

I beat the engineering dept at ATI 3 weeks ago while in KC. Their interest is in the bolt on market.

I was promised IC transfer rates very soon on several of their units. I will share once received if their is an interest.