zr1 motor in a boat
12-01-2008, 10:46 AM
#11
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How will the LS engine family work in Performance boats??
Thought I would chime in on this discussion, since Raylar has a little expierence in this area.
As for supercharging the Raylar LSM550, at this time we are not even thinking about it. Why?
1. Because the Raylar LSM550 is available now normally aspirated at 550HP and we are not swamped with orders!
The current marine high performance market is flat and projected to stay that way for awhile!
2. Supercharging marine high performance engines is not as easy or in anyway reliable enough as it has been in some automotive applications where it has been used somewhat successfully. Boats don't coast! like cars!
3. The average performance boater will not buy a motor he has to rebuild every 250 to 300 hours! nor one that use about 25 to 30% more fuel to produce its horsepower and torque!
So whats the real answer to using LS aluminum engines in performance boating?
1. The real factor that makes boats move especially in a performance mode is TORQUE!!.
2. Smaller cubic inch engines like the PROPOSED! GM LSA aluminum marine engines do not produce good big torque unless they are in BOOST, even at lower rpms. If you carefully study most of the PROPOSED torque curves for this engine you will see that the torque curve is either real PEAKY over its mid rpm band or its usably higher when the engine is in boost.
Remember most boats, even performance boats spend about 70-80% of their time crusing at 3000 to 4000 rpms. If you try and take a 6.2L - 372 CUBIC INCH LS engine with a big enough cam to make 540HP at 5600 rpms the torque levels in that 3000-4000 rpm range will be in the 350ft/lb range if the motor is not in boost. this is over 125 lbs less than a 375-425HP 496 or 502 cubuc inch engine!
If you put the engine in significant boost at these lower crusing rpms, you can make good torque in the 450 ft/lb range, but at the expense of engine durability and fuel comsumption!
As for marine conversions on stock GM 6.2L -7.0L crate type engines, GOOD LUCK!!, we tried this with pretty piss poor results. First the cast components, cranks, pistons and rods are not up to the task. They were designed to be low cost for emissions vehicle use and putting them under constant high torque and power loads pushes them beyond reasonable engine life hours and lots of subsequent early failures.
Remember these are aluminum engines and they must have closed cooling and special oil and fuel cooling provisions. The associated costs of properly fully marinizing these LS engines in a high performance level of power between 450 to 550HP is a daunting task and is more expensive than slapping some cast iron manifolds and such on an old iron big block or iron small block!
The Raylar LSM550 engine has all purpose built special forged internal parts such as crankshaft, connecting rods and pistons. the pistons alone were an incredible challange to develop with Mahle's help. We had to completely re-engineer the conventional LS type high performance piston to develop a forged piston with proper compression ratio, good ring life spacing design based on the engines short compression height and a piston and ring package that could last with hard hours of constant torque loading and high horsepower requirements of a performance marine engine! All of the GM high performance pistons failed to last in our tests!!
The other big if facing the marine high performance boating commmunity of builders and users is if GM is even going to be around to continue building these engines or if they will continue with all these high performance engine programs in the future with their pared down programs and obvious cost cutting measures??
The performance boating marine engine future is going to be a whole new animal and how many PROPOSED engines actually make it to firms like Mercury for mass marinization is a real IFFY if not a unrealistic future event!
How many super high performance handbuilt engines like the corvette ZR-1 engine ever see out of vehicle sales or use in production performance boats will most likely be ZERO!!
In the mean time what do you do if you want a powerful , all aluminum lightweight normally aspirated marine performance engine - Buy a Raylar LSM550! or go out and develop one for yourself with a large basket of dollars dollars for R&D, testing and development costs!!
Everything sometimes seems easy to the customer dreaming of a neat solution, the reality is not always that easy!!
Just a real reality check here!
Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar
As for supercharging the Raylar LSM550, at this time we are not even thinking about it. Why?
1. Because the Raylar LSM550 is available now normally aspirated at 550HP and we are not swamped with orders!
The current marine high performance market is flat and projected to stay that way for awhile!
2. Supercharging marine high performance engines is not as easy or in anyway reliable enough as it has been in some automotive applications where it has been used somewhat successfully. Boats don't coast! like cars!
3. The average performance boater will not buy a motor he has to rebuild every 250 to 300 hours! nor one that use about 25 to 30% more fuel to produce its horsepower and torque!
So whats the real answer to using LS aluminum engines in performance boating?
1. The real factor that makes boats move especially in a performance mode is TORQUE!!.
2. Smaller cubic inch engines like the PROPOSED! GM LSA aluminum marine engines do not produce good big torque unless they are in BOOST, even at lower rpms. If you carefully study most of the PROPOSED torque curves for this engine you will see that the torque curve is either real PEAKY over its mid rpm band or its usably higher when the engine is in boost.
Remember most boats, even performance boats spend about 70-80% of their time crusing at 3000 to 4000 rpms. If you try and take a 6.2L - 372 CUBIC INCH LS engine with a big enough cam to make 540HP at 5600 rpms the torque levels in that 3000-4000 rpm range will be in the 350ft/lb range if the motor is not in boost. this is over 125 lbs less than a 375-425HP 496 or 502 cubuc inch engine!
If you put the engine in significant boost at these lower crusing rpms, you can make good torque in the 450 ft/lb range, but at the expense of engine durability and fuel comsumption!
As for marine conversions on stock GM 6.2L -7.0L crate type engines, GOOD LUCK!!, we tried this with pretty piss poor results. First the cast components, cranks, pistons and rods are not up to the task. They were designed to be low cost for emissions vehicle use and putting them under constant high torque and power loads pushes them beyond reasonable engine life hours and lots of subsequent early failures.
Remember these are aluminum engines and they must have closed cooling and special oil and fuel cooling provisions. The associated costs of properly fully marinizing these LS engines in a high performance level of power between 450 to 550HP is a daunting task and is more expensive than slapping some cast iron manifolds and such on an old iron big block or iron small block!
The Raylar LSM550 engine has all purpose built special forged internal parts such as crankshaft, connecting rods and pistons. the pistons alone were an incredible challange to develop with Mahle's help. We had to completely re-engineer the conventional LS type high performance piston to develop a forged piston with proper compression ratio, good ring life spacing design based on the engines short compression height and a piston and ring package that could last with hard hours of constant torque loading and high horsepower requirements of a performance marine engine! All of the GM high performance pistons failed to last in our tests!!
The other big if facing the marine high performance boating commmunity of builders and users is if GM is even going to be around to continue building these engines or if they will continue with all these high performance engine programs in the future with their pared down programs and obvious cost cutting measures??
The performance boating marine engine future is going to be a whole new animal and how many PROPOSED engines actually make it to firms like Mercury for mass marinization is a real IFFY if not a unrealistic future event!
How many super high performance handbuilt engines like the corvette ZR-1 engine ever see out of vehicle sales or use in production performance boats will most likely be ZERO!!
In the mean time what do you do if you want a powerful , all aluminum lightweight normally aspirated marine performance engine - Buy a Raylar LSM550! or go out and develop one for yourself with a large basket of dollars dollars for R&D, testing and development costs!!
Everything sometimes seems easy to the customer dreaming of a neat solution, the reality is not always that easy!!
Just a real reality check here!
Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar
Last edited by Raylar; 12-01-2008 at 10:52 AM.
12-01-2008, 11:02 AM
#12
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I've been poking around Indmar's website. 400hp Gen IV SBCs. I wonder if part of their supply agreement with GM prevents them from competing with Mercury?
http://www.indmar.com/ProductLine/Ma...Y-6/index.html
http://www.indmar.com/ProductLine/In...-SS/index.html
http://www.indmar.com/ProductLine/Ma...Y-6/index.html
http://www.indmar.com/ProductLine/In...-SS/index.html
12-01-2008, 11:11 AM
#13
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Location: Toledo, Ohio/Las Vegas, NV
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Several years ago, someone did this with the LT-5 ZR-1 motor in a Baja. It was called the "wette vette. Cost a ton of money to do, and with today's prices for the engine and electronics it would be even more costly. Big cool factor, but probably not worth the investment.
12-01-2008, 12:26 PM
#14
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http://www.popularhotrodding.com/hot...ls9/index.html
12-01-2008, 12:50 PM
#15
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Note that the LSA 6.2 requires 'Premium' fuel, which I believe is 91 octane minimum. I have a hard time finding that on my local water-ways.
Raylar's LSM-550 only requires 89 octane. This is a big plus.
Raylar's LSM-550 only requires 89 octane. This is a big plus.
12-01-2008, 02:02 PM
#17
Sbc
I have good luck with small blocks in boats and have raced a 6.0 LQ9 with good luck.
Check out these headers for the old architecture small blocks by indmar. They have cats but would work great!
Steve
http://www.indmar.com/ProductLine/Ma...MCX/index.html
Check out these headers for the old architecture small blocks by indmar. They have cats but would work great!
Steve
http://www.indmar.com/ProductLine/Ma...MCX/index.html
12-01-2008, 03:16 PM
#18
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I have good luck with small blocks in boats and have raced a 6.0 LQ9 with good luck.
Check out these headers for the old architecture small blocks by indmar. They have cats but would work great!
Steve
http://www.indmar.com/ProductLine/Ma...MCX/index.html
Check out these headers for the old architecture small blocks by indmar. They have cats but would work great!
Steve
http://www.indmar.com/ProductLine/Ma...MCX/index.html
Even they say "Existing catalyst technology is not durable at sustained wide open throttle operation"
12-01-2008, 03:51 PM
#19
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The ZR1 would not make a good marine engine, it was built for a different purpose.
You can however, build a nasty marine engine using the available parts for the GEN 3 small blocks.
Someday soon I should have one of my projects completed using the GEN 3/4 technology. How many Factory GM small block heads have you seen that can flow over 400 cfm with light porting, stock valves and low lift?
12-02-2008, 11:10 AM
#20
Thought I would chime in on this discussion, since Raylar has a little expierence in this area.
As for supercharging the Raylar LSM550, at this time we are not even thinking about it. Why?
1. Because the Raylar LSM550 is available now normally aspirated at 550HP and we are not swamped with orders!
The current marine high performance market is flat and projected to stay that way for awhile!
2. Supercharging marine high performance engines is not as easy or in anyway reliable enough as it has been in some automotive applications where it has been used somewhat successfully. Boats don't coast! like cars!
3. The average performance boater will not buy a motor he has to rebuild every 250 to 300 hours! nor one that use about 25 to 30% more fuel to produce its horsepower and torque!
So whats the real answer to using LS aluminum engines in performance boating?
1. The real factor that makes boats move especially in a performance mode is TORQUE!!.
2. Smaller cubic inch engines like the PROPOSED! GM LSA aluminum marine engines do not produce good big torque unless they are in BOOST, even at lower rpms. If you carefully study most of the PROPOSED torque curves for this engine you will see that the torque curve is either real PEAKY over its mid rpm band or its usably higher when the engine is in boost.
Remember most boats, even performance boats spend about 70-80% of their time crusing at 3000 to 4000 rpms. If you try and take a 6.2L - 372 CUBIC INCH LS engine with a big enough cam to make 540HP at 5600 rpms the torque levels in that 3000-4000 rpm range will be in the 350ft/lb range if the motor is not in boost. this is over 125 lbs less than a 375-425HP 496 or 502 cubuc inch engine!
If you put the engine in significant boost at these lower crusing rpms, you can make good torque in the 450 ft/lb range, but at the expense of engine durability and fuel comsumption!
As for marine conversions on stock GM 6.2L -7.0L crate type engines, GOOD LUCK!!, we tried this with pretty piss poor results. First the cast components, cranks, pistons and rods are not up to the task. They were designed to be low cost for emissions vehicle use and putting them under constant high torque and power loads pushes them beyond reasonable engine life hours and lots of subsequent early failures.
Remember these are aluminum engines and they must have closed cooling and special oil and fuel cooling provisions. The associated costs of properly fully marinizing these LS engines in a high performance level of power between 450 to 550HP is a daunting task and is more expensive than slapping some cast iron manifolds and such on an old iron big block or iron small block!
The Raylar LSM550 engine has all purpose built special forged internal parts such as crankshaft, connecting rods and pistons. the pistons alone were an incredible challange to develop with Mahle's help. We had to completely re-engineer the conventional LS type high performance piston to develop a forged piston with proper compression ratio, good ring life spacing design based on the engines short compression height and a piston and ring package that could last with hard hours of constant torque loading and high horsepower requirements of a performance marine engine! All of the GM high performance pistons failed to last in our tests!!
The other big if facing the marine high performance boating commmunity of builders and users is if GM is even going to be around to continue building these engines or if they will continue with all these high performance engine programs in the future with their pared down programs and obvious cost cutting measures??
The performance boating marine engine future is going to be a whole new animal and how many PROPOSED engines actually make it to firms like Mercury for mass marinization is a real IFFY if not a unrealistic future event!
How many super high performance handbuilt engines like the corvette ZR-1 engine ever see out of vehicle sales or use in production performance boats will most likely be ZERO!!
In the mean time what do you do if you want a powerful , all aluminum lightweight normally aspirated marine performance engine - Buy a Raylar LSM550! or go out and develop one for yourself with a large basket of dollars dollars for R&D, testing and development costs!!
Everything sometimes seems easy to the customer dreaming of a neat solution, the reality is not always that easy!!
Just a real reality check here!
Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar
As for supercharging the Raylar LSM550, at this time we are not even thinking about it. Why?
1. Because the Raylar LSM550 is available now normally aspirated at 550HP and we are not swamped with orders!
The current marine high performance market is flat and projected to stay that way for awhile!
2. Supercharging marine high performance engines is not as easy or in anyway reliable enough as it has been in some automotive applications where it has been used somewhat successfully. Boats don't coast! like cars!
3. The average performance boater will not buy a motor he has to rebuild every 250 to 300 hours! nor one that use about 25 to 30% more fuel to produce its horsepower and torque!
So whats the real answer to using LS aluminum engines in performance boating?
1. The real factor that makes boats move especially in a performance mode is TORQUE!!.
2. Smaller cubic inch engines like the PROPOSED! GM LSA aluminum marine engines do not produce good big torque unless they are in BOOST, even at lower rpms. If you carefully study most of the PROPOSED torque curves for this engine you will see that the torque curve is either real PEAKY over its mid rpm band or its usably higher when the engine is in boost.
Remember most boats, even performance boats spend about 70-80% of their time crusing at 3000 to 4000 rpms. If you try and take a 6.2L - 372 CUBIC INCH LS engine with a big enough cam to make 540HP at 5600 rpms the torque levels in that 3000-4000 rpm range will be in the 350ft/lb range if the motor is not in boost. this is over 125 lbs less than a 375-425HP 496 or 502 cubuc inch engine!
If you put the engine in significant boost at these lower crusing rpms, you can make good torque in the 450 ft/lb range, but at the expense of engine durability and fuel comsumption!
As for marine conversions on stock GM 6.2L -7.0L crate type engines, GOOD LUCK!!, we tried this with pretty piss poor results. First the cast components, cranks, pistons and rods are not up to the task. They were designed to be low cost for emissions vehicle use and putting them under constant high torque and power loads pushes them beyond reasonable engine life hours and lots of subsequent early failures.
Remember these are aluminum engines and they must have closed cooling and special oil and fuel cooling provisions. The associated costs of properly fully marinizing these LS engines in a high performance level of power between 450 to 550HP is a daunting task and is more expensive than slapping some cast iron manifolds and such on an old iron big block or iron small block!
The Raylar LSM550 engine has all purpose built special forged internal parts such as crankshaft, connecting rods and pistons. the pistons alone were an incredible challange to develop with Mahle's help. We had to completely re-engineer the conventional LS type high performance piston to develop a forged piston with proper compression ratio, good ring life spacing design based on the engines short compression height and a piston and ring package that could last with hard hours of constant torque loading and high horsepower requirements of a performance marine engine! All of the GM high performance pistons failed to last in our tests!!
The other big if facing the marine high performance boating commmunity of builders and users is if GM is even going to be around to continue building these engines or if they will continue with all these high performance engine programs in the future with their pared down programs and obvious cost cutting measures??
The performance boating marine engine future is going to be a whole new animal and how many PROPOSED engines actually make it to firms like Mercury for mass marinization is a real IFFY if not a unrealistic future event!
How many super high performance handbuilt engines like the corvette ZR-1 engine ever see out of vehicle sales or use in production performance boats will most likely be ZERO!!
In the mean time what do you do if you want a powerful , all aluminum lightweight normally aspirated marine performance engine - Buy a Raylar LSM550! or go out and develop one for yourself with a large basket of dollars dollars for R&D, testing and development costs!!
Everything sometimes seems easy to the customer dreaming of a neat solution, the reality is not always that easy!!
Just a real reality check here!
Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar
thanks ,
bor
