Severe Duty Roller Lifters ????
08-14-2009, 07:07 AM
#31
Banned
Thread Starter
I hesitate to post this info, but the world has the right to know.
I believe I was Bob's first customer on the Isky Red Zone EZ wheeled solid lifters. They lasted 20hrs and destroyed 5 cam lobes. Isky rebuilt them for free! And changed the bearings in the wheels to a different design. But they didnt rebuild my engine that the lifters ruined. It was close to it's last bore and I hope I can salvage the block. It was blamed on my setup, but the Schubeck lifters didnt have a problem with my setup for 70hrs. If it was lofting as I was told, they would have exploded the glass wheels used on that lifter design. The bodies did crack on them. That is why I went to the Red Zones..
Hopefully with the R&D of destroying my motor I did for them, the new bearings hold up for all their future customers.
Mean while I am building a new motor. Going hydraulic this time.
Come to think of it, if they would have lasted, I may have been boating for the last two summers.. hmmm.. Oh well that is the way it goes with Boating!! 
I believe I was Bob's first customer on the Isky Red Zone EZ wheeled solid lifters. They lasted 20hrs and destroyed 5 cam lobes. Isky rebuilt them for free! And changed the bearings in the wheels to a different design. But they didnt rebuild my engine that the lifters ruined. It was close to it's last bore and I hope I can salvage the block. It was blamed on my setup, but the Schubeck lifters didnt have a problem with my setup for 70hrs. If it was lofting as I was told, they would have exploded the glass wheels used on that lifter design. The bodies did crack on them. That is why I went to the Red Zones..
Hopefully with the R&D of destroying my motor I did for them, the new bearings hold up for all their future customers. Mean while I am building a new motor. Going hydraulic this time.
Come to think of it, if they would have lasted, I may have been boating for the last two summers..
hmmm.. Oh well that is the way it goes with Boating!! 
I feel your pain and good luck with your new set-up
08-14-2009, 07:13 AM
#32
Banned
Thread Starter
Racing application, BBC, max RPM 7100, 260 seat 650 open, .710"-.725" nett lift, rev kit with Isky lifters, Isky and Morel with axle oiling, Dart BigM block, NO lifter sleeves,
40 hours per season,
Crower Severe Duty, (NOT HIPPO), 1 season - 4 x worn roller axles
Isky Red Zone, needle bearing, 1.75 seasons - 1 worn axle and broken link bar
Bullet branded Morel Ultra Pro, 1st race DNF, lifter seized in bore with .0015" clearance
Previous Isky Red Zone, needle bearing (with 1 new lifter and link bar) 1/2 season, 1 worn axle and broken link bar
Previous Bullet and 1pr new PBM branded Morel Ultra Pro, 1st race 55 miles DNF, lifter nipped in bore with .00175" clearance ( different cylinder this time)
Rebuilt Isky Red Zones with EZ-X and captive link bar, 1.5 seasons, no failure, removed and swapped for new lifters at cam change on dyno
New Isky Red Zone EZ-X and captive link bar, 10 minutes dyno and waiting to go racing
Note: the lifter bores have NOT been bushed or sleeved, only honed and cleaned up.
I sympathize with Mr Gadgets as I heard of early Isky EZ failures.
40 hours per season,
Crower Severe Duty, (NOT HIPPO), 1 season - 4 x worn roller axles
Isky Red Zone, needle bearing, 1.75 seasons - 1 worn axle and broken link bar
Bullet branded Morel Ultra Pro, 1st race DNF, lifter seized in bore with .0015" clearance
Previous Isky Red Zone, needle bearing (with 1 new lifter and link bar) 1/2 season, 1 worn axle and broken link bar
Previous Bullet and 1pr new PBM branded Morel Ultra Pro, 1st race 55 miles DNF, lifter nipped in bore with .00175" clearance ( different cylinder this time)
Rebuilt Isky Red Zones with EZ-X and captive link bar, 1.5 seasons, no failure, removed and swapped for new lifters at cam change on dyno
New Isky Red Zone EZ-X and captive link bar, 10 minutes dyno and waiting to go racing
Note: the lifter bores have NOT been bushed or sleeved, only honed and cleaned up.
I sympathize with Mr Gadgets as I heard of early Isky EZ failures.
The Crowers you tried were just the 903H s or the new Maximus that i've heard are an equal to Jessel ??
08-14-2009, 08:18 AM
#33
Platinum Member
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I hesitate to post this info, but the world has the right to know.
I believe I was Bob's first customer on the Isky Red Zone EZ wheeled solid lifters. They lasted 20hrs and destroyed 5 cam lobes. Isky rebuilt them for free! And changed the bearings in the wheels to a different design. But they didnt rebuild my engine that the lifters ruined. It was close to it's last bore and I hope I can salvage the block. It was blamed on my setup, but the Schubeck lifters didnt have a problem with my setup for 70hrs. If it was lofting as I was told, they would have exploded the glass wheels used on that lifter design. The bodies did crack on them. That is why I went to the Red Zones.. Hopefully with the R&D of destroying my motor I did for them, the new bearings hold up for all their future customers.
Mean while I am building a new motor. Going hydraulic this time.
Come to think of it, if they would have lasted, I may have been boating for the last two summers.. hmmm.. Oh well that is the way it goes with Boating!!
I believe I was Bob's first customer on the Isky Red Zone EZ wheeled solid lifters. They lasted 20hrs and destroyed 5 cam lobes. Isky rebuilt them for free! And changed the bearings in the wheels to a different design. But they didnt rebuild my engine that the lifters ruined. It was close to it's last bore and I hope I can salvage the block. It was blamed on my setup, but the Schubeck lifters didnt have a problem with my setup for 70hrs. If it was lofting as I was told, they would have exploded the glass wheels used on that lifter design. The bodies did crack on them. That is why I went to the Red Zones..
Hopefully with the R&D of destroying my motor I did for them, the new bearings hold up for all their future customers. Mean while I am building a new motor. Going hydraulic this time.
Come to think of it, if they would have lasted, I may have been boating for the last two summers..
hmmm.. Oh well that is the way it goes with Boating!! 
.Back in the 90's Duttweiler tried to build big blocks with 12"" pushrods and never got them to live a real long time either so don't feel too bad that this thing never stayed together,I'm sure your next motor is going to "blow" people away,hope to see you on the water soon,good luck with everything
,Smitty
08-14-2009, 05:47 PM
#35
Registered
Racing application,
The Crowers were in the motor at first, over 4.5 years ago and in there defence were not the HIPPO version.
All lifters are .842".
I consider 2 seasons would be good ( 80 hours running).
IMO, when things start to go wrong the axles are 'the weakest link', they cannot handle much abuse, the needles pound through the hardening of the axle.
Are the EZ Isky's the answer, I'm not sure yet, does a rev-kit help, I believe so.
To put it in perspective a cam with .750" lift was considered radical a few years ago, now we are running endurance racing with that lift.
And remember, nothing lasts forever.
08-14-2009, 09:28 PM
#36
Banned
Thread Starter
Racing application,
The Crowers were in the motor at first, over 4.5 years ago and in there defence were not the HIPPO version.
All lifters are .842".
I consider 2 seasons would be good ( 80 hours running).
IMO, when things start to go wrong the axles are 'the weakest link', they cannot handle much abuse, the needles pound through the hardening of the axle.
Are the EZ Isky's the answer, I'm not sure yet, does a rev-kit help, I believe so.
To put it in perspective a cam with .750" lift was considered radical a few years ago, now we are running endurance racing with that lift.
And remember, nothing lasts forever.
The Crowers were in the motor at first, over 4.5 years ago and in there defence were not the HIPPO version.
All lifters are .842".
I consider 2 seasons would be good ( 80 hours running).
IMO, when things start to go wrong the axles are 'the weakest link', they cannot handle much abuse, the needles pound through the hardening of the axle.
Are the EZ Isky's the answer, I'm not sure yet, does a rev-kit help, I believe so.
To put it in perspective a cam with .750" lift was considered radical a few years ago, now we are running endurance racing with that lift.
And remember, nothing lasts forever.
08-16-2009, 08:34 AM
#37
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Join Date: Jul 2008
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Roller Lifters, solid or hydraulic have come along way in service life, material make-up, pin oiling, ceramic bearings. The manufactures have put in alot of engineering and testing on these parts, using the spintron, dyno time, and racing as the proving grounds for them. These parts are not just sent out to the public as test subjects for you to wipe-out your valve train for. Most lifter failures come from instability in the valve train. Lets start at the crankshaft: harmonics tranfer through the timing chain, or if you are using a gear-grive. Belt drives cushion the harmonics. Cam end play: To much and you will cause the lifter wheels to side load, back and forth, plus the wheel tracking on the lobe will be wider. The lifter: you get what you pay for. Don't try to use a street roller lifter in a endurance engine. Use one that is matched to your build. Lifter bores: Proper clearance, was there any lifter issues before with this block? I always check the lifter bores for sizing, out-of-round and taper. 9 times out of 10, I index the lifter bores and install bronze bushings, hone to size. Push rods: This seems to be always a big question. Weight is not the issue here. DEFLECTION IS! Questions on what pushrods to use would be , length, spring pressure, lift of valve, rpms, Is the application going in a offshore boat or a lake boat. Rocker arms: Solid roller cam, shaft mounted. Mild hydraulic, quality made stud mount. Shaft mounted on any hydraulic roller cam is going to stabilize the valve train. It's a matter of what you want for results in the end. We know at this point, that weight becomes a factor: Retainer, locks and valve. Keep it light as possible. Valve Springs: I let the cam guy take care of this. Lift, rpms, weight at the valve. This all comes into play, wrong spring pressure, spring rate will upset the whole valve train. Use a quaility spring with endurance specs.
This is what I follow in my builds, with stable valve trains and good results. Parts do fail don't get me wrong. Inspection of parts before installation, measuring and properly matched componets are the final responsibility of the builder.
There are alot of quality parts out there, so I guess it's up to the builder on what they use. Alot of parts are shot down by some, maybe because they didn't have the build correct from the start. If you want to see some different lifters, go look at Jesel's site; keyway lifters, dog bone style, tie bar. Now your talking some BIG BUCKS, these lifters will fail also if the valve train is unstable. The lifter is not THE FAIL SAFE, for the valve train.
Thanks for your time: Mark
This is what I follow in my builds, with stable valve trains and good results. Parts do fail don't get me wrong. Inspection of parts before installation, measuring and properly matched componets are the final responsibility of the builder.
There are alot of quality parts out there, so I guess it's up to the builder on what they use. Alot of parts are shot down by some, maybe because they didn't have the build correct from the start. If you want to see some different lifters, go look at Jesel's site; keyway lifters, dog bone style, tie bar. Now your talking some BIG BUCKS, these lifters will fail also if the valve train is unstable. The lifter is not THE FAIL SAFE, for the valve train.
Thanks for your time: Mark
08-16-2009, 10:42 AM
#38
Banned
Thread Starter
Roller Lifters, solid or hydraulic have come along way in service life, material make-up, pin oiling, ceramic bearings. The manufactures have put in alot of engineering and testing on these parts, using the spintron, dyno time, and racing as the proving grounds for them. These parts are not just sent out to the public as test subjects for you to wipe-out your valve train for. Most lifter failures come from instability in the valve train. Lets start at the crankshaft: harmonics tranfer through the timing chain, or if you are using a gear-grive. Belt drives cushion the harmonics. Cam end play: To much and you will cause the lifter wheels to side load, back and forth, plus the wheel tracking on the lobe will be wider. The lifter: you get what you pay for. Don't try to use a street roller lifter in a endurance engine. Use one that is matched to your build. Lifter bores: Proper clearance, was there any lifter issues before with this block? I always check the lifter bores for sizing, out-of-round and taper. 9 times out of 10, I index the lifter bores and install bronze bushings, hone to size. Push rods: This seems to be always a big question. Weight is not the issue here. DEFLECTION IS! Questions on what pushrods to use would be , length, spring pressure, lift of valve, rpms, Is the application going in a offshore boat or a lake boat. Rocker arms: Solid roller cam, shaft mounted. Mild hydraulic, quality made stud mount. Shaft mounted on any hydraulic roller cam is going to stabilize the valve train. It's a matter of what you want for results in the end. We know at this point, that weight becomes a factor: Retainer, locks and valve. Keep it light as possible. Valve Springs: I let the cam guy take care of this. Lift, rpms, weight at the valve. This all comes into play, wrong spring pressure, spring rate will upset the whole valve train. Use a quaility spring with endurance specs.
This is what I follow in my builds, with stable valve trains and good results. Parts do fail don't get me wrong. Inspection of parts before installation, measuring and properly matched componets are the final responsibility of the builder.
There are alot of quality parts out there, so I guess it's up to the builder on what they use. Alot of parts are shot down by some, maybe because they didn't have the build correct from the start. If you want to see some different lifters, go look at Jesel's site; keyway lifters, dog bone style, tie bar. Now your talking some BIG BUCKS, these lifters will fail also if the valve train is unstable. The lifter is not THE FAIL SAFE, for the valve train.
Thanks for your time: Mark
This is what I follow in my builds, with stable valve trains and good results. Parts do fail don't get me wrong. Inspection of parts before installation, measuring and properly matched componets are the final responsibility of the builder.
There are alot of quality parts out there, so I guess it's up to the builder on what they use. Alot of parts are shot down by some, maybe because they didn't have the build correct from the start. If you want to see some different lifters, go look at Jesel's site; keyway lifters, dog bone style, tie bar. Now your talking some BIG BUCKS, these lifters will fail also if the valve train is unstable. The lifter is not THE FAIL SAFE, for the valve train.
Thanks for your time: Mark
thanks Mark all very usefull info and have been looking at the Jessel site and some very Trick chit there ...
08-16-2009, 12:33 PM
#39
Charter Member #601
Charter Member
Mark,
I agree totally with your perspective on the build.. I had LSM idex the bores and install Ampco bushings 9yrs ago.. when I switched to the Isky EZ wheels the bushings had to be replaced becasue the Schubeck's were keyed, so the process was done again. I checked clearances and they were good. Cam end play was good, timing chain used. Rocker arms were T&D shaft mounts, push rods were Trend 7/16" single taper. Springs used were the same ones my buddy used in his motor with 10yrs of success without pounded valve seats and his cam was a bigger than what I was using. They may have been on the heavy side, but I dont believe they were the problem. The Schbeck lifters were used for 20hrs on a .685" lift cam and then 70hrs on the .714" Cam Bob sold me. I found cracking on two of the lifter bodies ( they were a thin .023" shell with an aluminum insert and ceramic wheels). The cracks were at a point of machining with sharp edges. So I went to the EZ wheels. So I attempted to come up with a successful combination. The long push rods in that motor (Merlin Super Tall Deck) may have been an issue, but why did the Schubecks not have a problem with wheels. If there was any lofting with those lifters it would have broken a wheel and destoryed my motor. The cam looked like brand new when I install the EZ wheels. I tried and accept the "combination' theory right up until my friend had the same damage on his EZ wheel lifter wheels. Now his combination was not as severe as mine, but after 100hrs he had a couple of wheels that looked just like mine. Isky's explanation was the wheel stuck on the axel. I was told that my setup was wrong. After mine failed Bob told me they wouldn't sell anymore EZ wheels for a marine application without using the better design.
So your statement:
"These parts are not just sent out to the public as test subjects for you to wipe-out your valve train for." is hard for me to swallow. I dont think anyone did this intentionally. But the fact of the matter is, they wont sell the lifters with the wheels I and my friend had anymore. And to blame the problem on my setup was not intirely true. The heavy valve springs may have contributed to early failure, but they did seem to have a design flaw right from the start.
I dont hold any blame to anyone but myself for buying too early in the normal process of selling products. I should have waited until someone else's failed. But I do like the idea of no needle bearings and that is why I bought them. Isky stood by and rebuilt my lifters. Had I know there was a better EZ wheel I would have considered buying it. I didnt find that info out until mine failed.
As with all things in life, Chit Happens. I have just taken a new and different course to avoid the big cams, solid rollers and super tall deck. We'll see if it helps..
I am having a hard time putting all that old hardware in the trash. Some day I may just turn it all in for scap or I may try again to see if I can make that combination work. It will make a sweet lawn mower motor!!
Just had to vent a bit.. Thanks for listening.
Dick
I agree totally with your perspective on the build.. I had LSM idex the bores and install Ampco bushings 9yrs ago.. when I switched to the Isky EZ wheels the bushings had to be replaced becasue the Schubeck's were keyed, so the process was done again. I checked clearances and they were good. Cam end play was good, timing chain used. Rocker arms were T&D shaft mounts, push rods were Trend 7/16" single taper. Springs used were the same ones my buddy used in his motor with 10yrs of success without pounded valve seats and his cam was a bigger than what I was using. They may have been on the heavy side, but I dont believe they were the problem. The Schbeck lifters were used for 20hrs on a .685" lift cam and then 70hrs on the .714" Cam Bob sold me. I found cracking on two of the lifter bodies ( they were a thin .023" shell with an aluminum insert and ceramic wheels). The cracks were at a point of machining with sharp edges. So I went to the EZ wheels. So I attempted to come up with a successful combination. The long push rods in that motor (Merlin Super Tall Deck) may have been an issue, but why did the Schubecks not have a problem with wheels. If there was any lofting with those lifters it would have broken a wheel and destoryed my motor. The cam looked like brand new when I install the EZ wheels. I tried and accept the "combination' theory right up until my friend had the same damage on his EZ wheel lifter wheels. Now his combination was not as severe as mine, but after 100hrs he had a couple of wheels that looked just like mine. Isky's explanation was the wheel stuck on the axel. I was told that my setup was wrong. After mine failed Bob told me they wouldn't sell anymore EZ wheels for a marine application without using the better design.
So your statement:
"These parts are not just sent out to the public as test subjects for you to wipe-out your valve train for." is hard for me to swallow. I dont think anyone did this intentionally. But the fact of the matter is, they wont sell the lifters with the wheels I and my friend had anymore. And to blame the problem on my setup was not intirely true. The heavy valve springs may have contributed to early failure, but they did seem to have a design flaw right from the start.
I dont hold any blame to anyone but myself for buying too early in the normal process of selling products. I should have waited until someone else's failed. But I do like the idea of no needle bearings and that is why I bought them. Isky stood by and rebuilt my lifters. Had I know there was a better EZ wheel I would have considered buying it. I didnt find that info out until mine failed.
As with all things in life, Chit Happens. I have just taken a new and different course to avoid the big cams, solid rollers and super tall deck. We'll see if it helps..
I am having a hard time putting all that old hardware in the trash. Some day I may just turn it all in for scap or I may try again to see if I can make that combination work. It will make a sweet lawn mower motor!!
Just had to vent a bit.. Thanks for listening.
Dick
08-16-2009, 07:56 PM
#40
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Dick, This post wasn't a shot at you directly. I was unknown of your build, until today. If Isky removed the EZ roll lifter for problems I understand that. I know parts fail and some may need to be tested for different applications. I felt Bob's, name being brought into the statement wasn't fair. He didn't manufacture the lifter, Isky did. They sold him the goods. No one I know in the performance industry will warrenty the damaged parts, just the part they made. Others have complained about lifters on this forum, some I know the facts on and some I don't. My point being is that the componets have to be matched, one thing being incorrect can destroy the engine. Mark
