Safe EGT'S?
#31
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Sorry, but I have to disagree. First, not all hardware fails due to extreme temps, or anything else for that matter.
Secondly, EGT's do not mean everything. When is engine is properly tuned (afr's are ideal) and the engine has the maximum amount of timing that it can without detonating, then the egt's are what they are and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it. You have unlimited tunability to control afr's. You can also move the timing around where ever you want it. After you get that right, the egt's cant be changed. The egt's could be high if the engine is either rich or lean, so how can you tune from just them? You can't. If the afr's are too high and the engine starts to knock, it will tear itself up before the egt's ever get out of hand.
When tuning, I live and die by afr's. Not just for economy or emissions, but to keep the engine together and running the best that it can. Sure, I take those things into consideration.....especially economy. I also take egt's into consideration, but nothing more. They are a tool, but no where near as important as afr's. When an engine is tuned correctly and the timing is at it's optimum, then the egt's are going to be determined by your combo. Your choice of parts and method of build will have the greatest effect on them. If the engine is tuned and the egt's are still to high, then you made a poor choice when building it or picking a combo.
Look, I'm not trying to bust any balls or pick a fight. I am trying to help some people on here that need it. I want to make sure they have the correct info to go by. I'm sure you are very smart and are very good at what you do. Maybe diesels are different. I don't know anything about them, so I wouldn't know how to tune one.
Anyway, hope this helps someone.
Eddie
Secondly, EGT's do not mean everything. When is engine is properly tuned (afr's are ideal) and the engine has the maximum amount of timing that it can without detonating, then the egt's are what they are and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it. You have unlimited tunability to control afr's. You can also move the timing around where ever you want it. After you get that right, the egt's cant be changed. The egt's could be high if the engine is either rich or lean, so how can you tune from just them? You can't. If the afr's are too high and the engine starts to knock, it will tear itself up before the egt's ever get out of hand.
When tuning, I live and die by afr's. Not just for economy or emissions, but to keep the engine together and running the best that it can. Sure, I take those things into consideration.....especially economy. I also take egt's into consideration, but nothing more. They are a tool, but no where near as important as afr's. When an engine is tuned correctly and the timing is at it's optimum, then the egt's are going to be determined by your combo. Your choice of parts and method of build will have the greatest effect on them. If the engine is tuned and the egt's are still to high, then you made a poor choice when building it or picking a combo.
Look, I'm not trying to bust any balls or pick a fight. I am trying to help some people on here that need it. I want to make sure they have the correct info to go by. I'm sure you are very smart and are very good at what you do. Maybe diesels are different. I don't know anything about them, so I wouldn't know how to tune one.
Anyway, hope this helps someone.
Eddie
#33
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Just pulled my down after 14 months and 200 hrs ,, look like they came out the box with no color no stuck rings no distortion!!
Rudy Ice injection has Glenns 37 Talon that runs 155 all day long 15 pounds of boost with 350hrs @ 1440-1550 EGTs.. 1380hp on methanol
Hrs has nothing to do with it if its not right it wont make the dyno.
I have run 600 cuin supercharged power in a tunnel hull as long as anyone and have went to school burning many piston.
Years ago we didn't even have EGT or O2 sensors reading a new set of plugs after wot was the norm..
When my Dad raced with Cig in the 70s they used only aircraft cylinder temp gauges because with the 400 gals of fuel on board the EGTs were off the hook at the start of the race..
Something no one has talk about is intake air temp,, another factor that plays and important role in supercharge set up. Before 3 Stage water pumps the EGT limits were much lower..
The eliminator was 1982, Rig my boats,engines,transmissions and gave up the drive duty to Randy with Marine Drives because hes the man!!
Rudy Ice injection has Glenns 37 Talon that runs 155 all day long 15 pounds of boost with 350hrs @ 1440-1550 EGTs.. 1380hp on methanol
Hrs has nothing to do with it if its not right it wont make the dyno.
I have run 600 cuin supercharged power in a tunnel hull as long as anyone and have went to school burning many piston.
Years ago we didn't even have EGT or O2 sensors reading a new set of plugs after wot was the norm..
When my Dad raced with Cig in the 70s they used only aircraft cylinder temp gauges because with the 400 gals of fuel on board the EGTs were off the hook at the start of the race..
Something no one has talk about is intake air temp,, another factor that plays and important role in supercharge set up. Before 3 Stage water pumps the EGT limits were much lower..
The eliminator was 1982, Rig my boats,engines,transmissions and gave up the drive duty to Randy with Marine Drives because hes the man!!
#34
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As far as intake air temp, there are several things that can affect it. Boost pressure, blower size, blower effic.,intercooler size and effic., ambient air temp, etc. These can all have an effect, yet they can all be controlled or modified. Blowers are constantly being refined, new models are coming out, bigger intercoolers, add a scoop to the engine hatch, more water flow, etc. The nice thing about the Mefi is that it monitors IAT (intake air temp) and takes it into consideration when regulating injector pulsewidths.
Sheetmetal intakes do not last on marine supercharged engines, especially with larger blowers like a 5.0 Whipple or roots. They are to weak to support an intercooler, heavy blower, carbs or throttle bodies, etc. They will crack and break after a few hard landings. I won't even use them on a NA engine in a boat. It's just asking for trouble.
IMO, hot oil will raise the intake air temps by splashing on the bottom of the intake. I spend a ton of time opening up oil drain holes to assist the oil in draining back to the pan quickly. I don't know how much of an effect it will have, but I try to minimize it as much as possible.
Eddie
Sheetmetal intakes do not last on marine supercharged engines, especially with larger blowers like a 5.0 Whipple or roots. They are to weak to support an intercooler, heavy blower, carbs or throttle bodies, etc. They will crack and break after a few hard landings. I won't even use them on a NA engine in a boat. It's just asking for trouble.
IMO, hot oil will raise the intake air temps by splashing on the bottom of the intake. I spend a ton of time opening up oil drain holes to assist the oil in draining back to the pan quickly. I don't know how much of an effect it will have, but I try to minimize it as much as possible.
Eddie
#35
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I realize one doesn't see many sheet metal intakes. Comparatively, they're expensive, didn't know they are prone to fail.
Someone like Hogan uses thick material, they must be concerned and have structural history. Subject to failures being fatigue, wouldn't they add even more material? It seems, at some point, structural failure wouldn't be a problem.
A couple of things the sheet metal intake lends itself to is isolation from lifter valley oil, ease of by pass valve installation and running water between the plenum floor and top of manifold base plate. The combination of at least some of those items should reduce "heat soak" and make the runners a little cooler.
Recently, a group of engineers were discussing forced induction. Someone mentioned John Force had created a supercharger starting with a 16:71 case,cutting the case in half, creating a mid-point bulkhead w/gearing and installing/connecting two complete sets of rotors, end to end. Someone else suggested using part of that theory, only use a small roots in one end and a screw blower at the other end. The discussion went on to include, benefits may reduce compressor RPM, heat, lag, durability, parasitic loss and etc ?
Someone like Hogan uses thick material, they must be concerned and have structural history. Subject to failures being fatigue, wouldn't they add even more material? It seems, at some point, structural failure wouldn't be a problem.
A couple of things the sheet metal intake lends itself to is isolation from lifter valley oil, ease of by pass valve installation and running water between the plenum floor and top of manifold base plate. The combination of at least some of those items should reduce "heat soak" and make the runners a little cooler.
Recently, a group of engineers were discussing forced induction. Someone mentioned John Force had created a supercharger starting with a 16:71 case,cutting the case in half, creating a mid-point bulkhead w/gearing and installing/connecting two complete sets of rotors, end to end. Someone else suggested using part of that theory, only use a small roots in one end and a screw blower at the other end. The discussion went on to include, benefits may reduce compressor RPM, heat, lag, durability, parasitic loss and etc ?
#36
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Has anyone considered an EFI system that includes fuel tanks with different octane fuel in each one. The primary tanks would provide 93 octane, secondary tank (s) would contain higher octane. The PLC (programable Logic Controller) would monitor RPM and all other inputs, subject to programming. As RPM and other criteria were exceeded, valving would open to introduce high octane, blending with the 93 octane. Fail safe could include such as RPM or timing control until a flow meter reported programmed flow volume.
#37
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Has anyone considered an EFI system that includes fuel tanks with different octane fuel in each one. The primary tanks would provide 93 octane, secondary tank (s) would contain higher octane. The PLC (programable Logic Controller) would monitor RPM and all other inputs, subject to programming. As RPM and other criteria were exceeded, valving would open to introduce high octane, blending with the 93 octane. Fail safe could include such as RPM or timing control until a flow meter reported programmed flow volume.
I am making over 1300 hp on pump gas with a hyd. roller. If you want and can afford more than that, then a little high octane fuel should not be that big of a hurdle. I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel. I'm trying to simplify things, not make them more complicated than they need to be.
Eddie
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Sure....unfortunately it is a bunch of crap to go wrong. Not trying to be a smartass, but that is just to complicated. If you are going to carry high octane fuel, then just run it. The biggest drawback to high octane gas is getting it and pumping it in the boat. The hard work is done.
I am making over 1300 hp on pump gas with a hyd. roller. If you want and can afford more than that, then a little high octane fuel should not be that big of a hurdle. I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel. I'm trying to simplify things, not make them more complicated than they need to be.
Eddie
I am making over 1300 hp on pump gas with a hyd. roller. If you want and can afford more than that, then a little high octane fuel should not be that big of a hurdle. I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel. I'm trying to simplify things, not make them more complicated than they need to be.
Eddie
This has been a hobby and not intended to be a Pandoras Box.
Today, highest octane fuel is a problem at the dock, tomorrow, what is available today at the dock, may not be available. One thing for sure, we have seen changes and will probably see more. Therefore, the above is not an attempt at re-invention but, a different approach to what, say Mercury is doing with their ECU, maybe you are also.
I'm not a proponent of making things complicated, to the contrary. Race application is one thing and deserves special consideration. Pleasure is another matter, probably even tougher. The boat sits for weeks, months or even years while corrosion and other deterioration occurs. Electronics is especially sensitive to those problems. So, if electronics is a topic, then conductors, routing, terminals, modules and module components better be military spec or better. I perceive inner-coolers deserve similar respect.
#39
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Yes, you can run multiple fuels with a Mefi ecm. It is very easy to do. What I was trying to say is that I have a few customers that are on or over the edge of pump gas. Normally, it is not a problem. However, if they are making a poker run or going to really run it hard, then they will throw a little insurance in the tank in the form of 110. They will add anywhere from 20%-50%, depending on the setup. We all feel that is the easiest way to handle it. I have thrown out the idea of running multiple fuels and being able to switch the ecm between the two, and I have not had one customer that wanted to go that route. But, to answer your question, yes it can be done and just requires some tuning.
Eddie
Eddie
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Does anyone know or have an opinion of race gas life expectancy in barrels or in fuel tanks ? What are some of the options for buying (where to buy) good gas ? Is it legal to run race gas on the lake ? Does the insurance company care ? (the spill part of an insurance policy)