Whipple tuned 525 PCM?
10-04-2011, 07:22 AM
#21
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Dustin:
.
Some of my reasoning here is from our findings, that one, peak power on the two HP525efi's we worked with on the dyno and with the standard stock camshafts occurred at 5200 rpms and even when we raised the rev-limit setting to 5600 rpms , we saw the power falling off above 5300 rpms.
Ray @ Raylar
.
Some of my reasoning here is from our findings, that one, peak power on the two HP525efi's we worked with on the dyno and with the standard stock camshafts occurred at 5200 rpms and even when we raised the rev-limit setting to 5600 rpms , we saw the power falling off above 5300 rpms.
Ray @ Raylar
525 EFI
Crane #16HR00004 ?
298º/306º @ .004"
236º/244º @.050"
.610"/.632" Lift Valve
114º LSA
02-11-2012, 10:19 AM
#23
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Question for Raylar
Understanding that this may not be for the recreational boater but more in tune for the racer. All things being the same with the recalibration of the mapping and not raising of the limiter, do you still feel that this may be detrimental to the health of the motor?
Understanding that this may not be for the recreational boater but more in tune for the racer. All things being the same with the recalibration of the mapping and not raising of the limiter, do you still feel that this may be detrimental to the health of the motor?
02-11-2012, 11:49 AM
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Raytart & Other Interested HP525EFI owners:
This is my personal opinion on trying to eek extra power out of a stock Mercury Racing HP525efi for non racing use.
First , Raylar has now done a lot of dyno testing and very specialized and detailed work on the HP525EFI engine as the basis for our Raylar HP675efi conversion for the HP525efi engine.
First thing we find is that the HP5253efi engine will go about 200 rpms above its soft rev-limit of 54000rpms to a 5600 rpm hard limit, so the rpm range is at a nice point for the engine and its longevity and overall reliability.
Second we find the timing curves programmed into a stock HP525efi are pretty aggressive and we could not generate any real power by increasing them, especially in the 4000-5400 rpm ranges.
Third, Mercury Racing has more expierence and dyno work during development and testing both from their testing and that from racing teams than anyone in the marine performance industry. The main reason they did not get anymore aggressive on the overall ECM program for this engine was and has been the reason this engine has had such a successful history of great performance and reliable performance marine usage (this is exclusive of the header leakage issues). To provide the regular warranties and extended warranties they have provided for this engine they obviously don't want to push the engine thru programming to the edge of reliable operation and hence the ECM program is a good workable point where even many racers stayed successfully for years before now using some of the newer "push the limit-racing" reprogramming that is now available.
Most of the current offering high performance EFI marine engines are expensive to begin with and repairing those that have suffered catistrophic breakage that was accellerated from pushing the limits of programming and stock parts stresses is very expensive and can easily destroy many boaters short boating seasons!
Mercury Racing like any good performance engine company wants to keep its offerings at the "head of the pack" when it comes to overall performance and tempered with good reliability and some reasonable longevity. If they could have done or could currently do "tweaks" to the stock HP525efi program that would easily increase its horsepower and torque and not sacrifice reliability and longevity they would have already done this.
I still stand on the position that if you have Merc Racing HP525efi engines and you are not racing and you don't have unlimited resources and time for expensive repair or replacement, stay with stock programming and when the rebuild time has arrived then look to the good horspower increases that can be made to this engine with upgrades like the Raylar HP675efi package or others packages available from a few other reliable marine performance engine builders who have had good success with their upgrade builds.
I am attaching an actual timing file fro the HP525efi stock program and if you understand and can read these a little you can see they did not skimp on timing.
Again, JMPO here as I am just one in a "sea of experts"
Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar
This is my personal opinion on trying to eek extra power out of a stock Mercury Racing HP525efi for non racing use.
First , Raylar has now done a lot of dyno testing and very specialized and detailed work on the HP525EFI engine as the basis for our Raylar HP675efi conversion for the HP525efi engine.
First thing we find is that the HP5253efi engine will go about 200 rpms above its soft rev-limit of 54000rpms to a 5600 rpm hard limit, so the rpm range is at a nice point for the engine and its longevity and overall reliability.
Second we find the timing curves programmed into a stock HP525efi are pretty aggressive and we could not generate any real power by increasing them, especially in the 4000-5400 rpm ranges.
Third, Mercury Racing has more expierence and dyno work during development and testing both from their testing and that from racing teams than anyone in the marine performance industry. The main reason they did not get anymore aggressive on the overall ECM program for this engine was and has been the reason this engine has had such a successful history of great performance and reliable performance marine usage (this is exclusive of the header leakage issues). To provide the regular warranties and extended warranties they have provided for this engine they obviously don't want to push the engine thru programming to the edge of reliable operation and hence the ECM program is a good workable point where even many racers stayed successfully for years before now using some of the newer "push the limit-racing" reprogramming that is now available.
Most of the current offering high performance EFI marine engines are expensive to begin with and repairing those that have suffered catistrophic breakage that was accellerated from pushing the limits of programming and stock parts stresses is very expensive and can easily destroy many boaters short boating seasons!
Mercury Racing like any good performance engine company wants to keep its offerings at the "head of the pack" when it comes to overall performance and tempered with good reliability and some reasonable longevity. If they could have done or could currently do "tweaks" to the stock HP525efi program that would easily increase its horsepower and torque and not sacrifice reliability and longevity they would have already done this.
I still stand on the position that if you have Merc Racing HP525efi engines and you are not racing and you don't have unlimited resources and time for expensive repair or replacement, stay with stock programming and when the rebuild time has arrived then look to the good horspower increases that can be made to this engine with upgrades like the Raylar HP675efi package or others packages available from a few other reliable marine performance engine builders who have had good success with their upgrade builds.
I am attaching an actual timing file fro the HP525efi stock program and if you understand and can read these a little you can see they did not skimp on timing.
Again, JMPO here as I am just one in a "sea of experts"
Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar
Last edited by Raylar; 02-12-2012 at 06:40 PM.
02-11-2012, 07:08 PM
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Raytart & Other Interested HP525EFI owners:
This is my personal opinion on trying to eek extra power out of a stock Mercury Racing HP525efi for non racing use.
First , Raylar has now done a lot of dyno testing and very specialized and detailed work on the HP525EFI engine as the basis for our Raylar HP675efi conversion for the HP525efi engine.
First thing we find is that the HP5253efi engine will go about 200 -400 rpms above its advertised rev-limit of 5250rpms, so the rpm range is at a nice point for the engine and its longevity and overall reliability.
Second we find the timing curves programmed into a stock HP525efi are pretty aggressive and we could not generate any real power by increasing them, especially in the 4000-5400 rpm ranges.
Third, Mercury Racing has more expierence and dyno work during development and testing both from their testing and that from racing teams than anyone in the marine performance industry. The main reason they did not get anymore aggressive on the overall ECM program for this engine was and has been the reason this engine has had such a successful history of great performance and reliable performance marine usage (this is exclusive of the header leakage issues). To provide the regular warranties and extended warranties they have provided for this engine they obviously don't want to push the engine thru programming to the edge of reliable operation and hence the ECM program is a good workable point where even many racers stayed successfully for years before now using some of the newer "push the limit-racing" reprogramming that is now available.
Most of the current offering high performance EFI marine engines are expensive to begin with and repairing those that have suffered catistrophic breakage that was accellerated from pushing the limits of programming and stock parts stresses is very expensive and can easily destroy many boaters short boating seasons!
Mercury Racing like any good performance engine company wants to keep its offerings at the "head of the pack" when it comes to overall performance and tempered with good reliability and some reasonable longevity. If they could have done or could currently do "tweaks" to the stock HP525efi program that would easily increase its horsepower and torque and not sacrifice reliability and longevity they would have already done this.
I still stand on the position that if you have Merc Racing HP525efi engines and you are not racing and you don't have unlimited resources and time for expensive repair or replacement, stay with stock programming and when the rebuild time has arrived then look to the good horspower increases that can be made to this engine with upgrades like the Raylar HP675efi package or others available from a few other reliable marine performance engine builders who have had good success with their upgrade builds.
I am attaching an actual timing file fro the HP525efi stock program and if you understand and can read these a little you can see they did not skimp on timing.
Again, JMPO here as I am just one in a "sea of experts"
Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar
This is my personal opinion on trying to eek extra power out of a stock Mercury Racing HP525efi for non racing use.
First , Raylar has now done a lot of dyno testing and very specialized and detailed work on the HP525EFI engine as the basis for our Raylar HP675efi conversion for the HP525efi engine.
First thing we find is that the HP5253efi engine will go about 200 -400 rpms above its advertised rev-limit of 5250rpms, so the rpm range is at a nice point for the engine and its longevity and overall reliability.
Second we find the timing curves programmed into a stock HP525efi are pretty aggressive and we could not generate any real power by increasing them, especially in the 4000-5400 rpm ranges.
Third, Mercury Racing has more expierence and dyno work during development and testing both from their testing and that from racing teams than anyone in the marine performance industry. The main reason they did not get anymore aggressive on the overall ECM program for this engine was and has been the reason this engine has had such a successful history of great performance and reliable performance marine usage (this is exclusive of the header leakage issues). To provide the regular warranties and extended warranties they have provided for this engine they obviously don't want to push the engine thru programming to the edge of reliable operation and hence the ECM program is a good workable point where even many racers stayed successfully for years before now using some of the newer "push the limit-racing" reprogramming that is now available.
Most of the current offering high performance EFI marine engines are expensive to begin with and repairing those that have suffered catistrophic breakage that was accellerated from pushing the limits of programming and stock parts stresses is very expensive and can easily destroy many boaters short boating seasons!
Mercury Racing like any good performance engine company wants to keep its offerings at the "head of the pack" when it comes to overall performance and tempered with good reliability and some reasonable longevity. If they could have done or could currently do "tweaks" to the stock HP525efi program that would easily increase its horsepower and torque and not sacrifice reliability and longevity they would have already done this.
I still stand on the position that if you have Merc Racing HP525efi engines and you are not racing and you don't have unlimited resources and time for expensive repair or replacement, stay with stock programming and when the rebuild time has arrived then look to the good horspower increases that can be made to this engine with upgrades like the Raylar HP675efi package or others available from a few other reliable marine performance engine builders who have had good success with their upgrade builds.
I am attaching an actual timing file fro the HP525efi stock program and if you understand and can read these a little you can see they did not skimp on timing.
Again, JMPO here as I am just one in a "sea of experts"
Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar
And this is not a 496 Vortec style cylinder head, 27 degree's at 4800 is only "aggressive" if your running some reject 83 octane! Are you kidding me? This is a GM Big block with aluminum heads and only 8.75:1 compression.
Fact, the reason Mercury Racing did not get more "agressive" is they reached there power goal with 87 octane, and they were so safe on 87, that they did not even turn on the knock detection system. Late model motors don't even have the sensors installed. Therefore, optimizing the spark curve with slower burning higher octane such as 91 certainly makes more power. Furthermore, the cylinders could use a small amount of trimming to keep them even. If you just raise the limit like some have, you don't actually gain any power so after plenty of dyno time on our own Superflow dyno, we found more power across the board, as well as better air fuel distribution per cylinder that helped them all keep a consistent 12.8:1 to 13:1.
Another fact, there are many different cals out there, with drastically different VE tables as well as varied timing tables. Just making sure the cal is the latest helps clean the transom and give more acceleration.
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Faster Daddy (11-07-2022)
02-12-2012, 07:08 PM
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Agree to Disagree
Dustin and others:
I went back in my HP525 files and notes and I apologize for those floating rpm rev-limits and such. Dustin, you are correct that the actual soft rev-limit is set for 5400rpms and at 5600 rpms the engine is on the hard limit.
I have corrected my previous post so as to not continue others reading incorrect or misleading numbers.
I will say however that during our testing we saw the program start pulling power at just 5400 rpms and a big power down at 5600rpms when the hard limiter kicked in.
My point here is that it is not good for the engine to run over any good length of time on the soft or the hard limiter and hence I would recommend keeping the boat propped to pull 5350-5400 rpms and not look to go beyond that for recreational use.
Some guys think its Cool to hear an engine going on and off the limiter but I can assure you the engine and its components don't like it!
I also think that the stock valve train of the HP525efi engine is at the edge of dependability when taken over 5600 rpms for any length of time.
As for ignition timing the profile in the stock programming is obviuosly tuned for 87-89 octane fuel and setting the program for 91-93 octane fuel may allow a few more degrees of advance, but the net power increase at those points would not in my opinion be worth giving up good relaibility for maybe a 1 or so mile per hour increase.
As for 27 degree timing being a joke at 4800 rpms, if you look at the file I know you can see that at most MAP (manifold vacuum) settings and midrange to high rpms, the advance is at 38-40 degrees which is very healthy considering there is no knock retard system active to protect the engine and the advance at WOT MAP numbers is down to around 29 degrees which is where I think it should stay for reliability considering todays less than great real octane fuel numbers, ambient heat and high water temps many HP525 owners boat in.
As many now know, having 91-93 octane fuel at many boating areas around the country is getting harder to find if at all and the added expense of the higher octane fuels is a factor also.
If the ECM is reporgammed for 91-93 octane fuel then the boat owner could have issues finding that octane fuel especially if he is traveling to new boating areas and sites.
I am not telling anybody here to not reporgram your 525efi ECM, I am just saying in my (asked for opinion in this thread) I would not recommend it for taking rpms above 5600 and setting more agressive timing requiring 91-93 octane fuel.
Dustin, you have done a lot of testing and reporgramming and I have a great deal of respect for your skills, knowledge, products and opinions.
This is just one place we should respectfully agree to disagree.
Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar
I went back in my HP525 files and notes and I apologize for those floating rpm rev-limits and such. Dustin, you are correct that the actual soft rev-limit is set for 5400rpms and at 5600 rpms the engine is on the hard limit.
I have corrected my previous post so as to not continue others reading incorrect or misleading numbers.
I will say however that during our testing we saw the program start pulling power at just 5400 rpms and a big power down at 5600rpms when the hard limiter kicked in.
My point here is that it is not good for the engine to run over any good length of time on the soft or the hard limiter and hence I would recommend keeping the boat propped to pull 5350-5400 rpms and not look to go beyond that for recreational use.
Some guys think its Cool to hear an engine going on and off the limiter but I can assure you the engine and its components don't like it!
I also think that the stock valve train of the HP525efi engine is at the edge of dependability when taken over 5600 rpms for any length of time.
As for ignition timing the profile in the stock programming is obviuosly tuned for 87-89 octane fuel and setting the program for 91-93 octane fuel may allow a few more degrees of advance, but the net power increase at those points would not in my opinion be worth giving up good relaibility for maybe a 1 or so mile per hour increase.
As for 27 degree timing being a joke at 4800 rpms, if you look at the file I know you can see that at most MAP (manifold vacuum) settings and midrange to high rpms, the advance is at 38-40 degrees which is very healthy considering there is no knock retard system active to protect the engine and the advance at WOT MAP numbers is down to around 29 degrees which is where I think it should stay for reliability considering todays less than great real octane fuel numbers, ambient heat and high water temps many HP525 owners boat in.
As many now know, having 91-93 octane fuel at many boating areas around the country is getting harder to find if at all and the added expense of the higher octane fuels is a factor also.
If the ECM is reporgammed for 91-93 octane fuel then the boat owner could have issues finding that octane fuel especially if he is traveling to new boating areas and sites.
I am not telling anybody here to not reporgram your 525efi ECM, I am just saying in my (asked for opinion in this thread) I would not recommend it for taking rpms above 5600 and setting more agressive timing requiring 91-93 octane fuel.
Dustin, you have done a lot of testing and reporgramming and I have a great deal of respect for your skills, knowledge, products and opinions.
This is just one place we should respectfully agree to disagree.
Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar
02-13-2012, 07:21 PM
#28
Platinum Member
02-13-2012, 07:36 PM
#30
It should be alright if you use Amsoil in the engine & Royal Purple 900w8675309 in the drive....only of you have a 847 & 1/3:1 mix of Sea-Foam in both and run Lucas fuel treatment. Otherwise it will never hold.
