Ignition/Distributor upgrade? Little help...
04-19-2013, 09:07 AM
#22
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My engine builder has told me he has seen as much as a 40hp gain on the dyno with the MSD HVC II coils. My brother in law has done some work with Ford engineering on some special spark plugs that they gained 30hp from. I am of the theory that a larger, hotter, longer spark creates a bigger, faster, flame front and thus more power. When I was a kid and had a 14:1 go cart race engine running 14,000rpm just spark plugs made a huge difference. When it comes to horsepower, everything matters, no detail is to small to overlook. Remember in the words of Smokey Yunick, "It's easier to find 100 ways to make 1hp than it is to find 1 to make 100hp". As far as the factory stuff goes, you have to evaluate their goals verses your goals. Their CFO wields a bigger stick than ours (sometimes). Their goal is to get it done for the least cost, my goal is to get it done for the most gain. Just do a spec check, the current, dwell, and voltage coming out of a really good ignition system is significantly better than anything factory. Factory motors aren't designed around 10:1 compression running at 6,000rpm either. Just my 2 cents.
04-19-2013, 09:22 AM
#23
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I have to disagree with you guys, regarding the "MSD" VS. "thunderbolt" stuff.
The stock thunderbolt ignition is a very good and reliable ignition. However, it is not in the same league as a aftermarket high performance capacitive discharge system.
The reason for multiple sparks below 3300RPM from a CD ignition is for a reason. The CD ignition, by design, provides a very short duration, high output spark, when compared to a stock inductive ignition's, long duration, weaker spark. So, what engineers at crane, msd, etc, have done is made the CD boxes so that they fire multiple sparks at low rpm. At high RPM, the multiple sparks simply aren't needed. Theoretically, some say you can run a tad more ignition lead with a CD ignition, since the spark duration is shorter.
While stock ignitions have their place, and do well for what they are, are limited. There IS a difference between a 450HP N/A 5000RPM engine, and a 700, 800, 900hp, and so on, forced induction, 6000+rpm engine, when it comes to ignition requirements. When you get into radical cam profiles, superchargers, big carburetors, boost, low vacuum signals at low speeds, the stock ignitions start lacking. I've seen it plenty of times, where engines like this, run soooooo much better simply by locking the timing out. The OE were so scared of detonation, they had some modules/springs, that wouldn't allow full ignition advance to 5000RPM!! I believe the 525SC was one of them.
Without getting into dwell, coil saturation, primary and secondary voltages, and all kinds of tech talk, in certain scenerios, I can see where a high output CD ignition, will lay the smack down on a stock setup. Some write off aftermarket ignitions as being "snake oil" and will be content bolting in a HEI from a 1975 Caprice classic, and feel good about it, and bolting in a higher output coil. I wonder why the Crane, MSD, Daytona sensors, and other high performance igntions, have a 10 gauge direct battery feed with capacitors and what not, to store energy and provide the secondary side with ample voltage. And the stock ignition has a single 16 or 18 gauge wire coming from the ignition switch 20 ft away.
In my opinion, "Likefastboats", you did good by replacing the stock T-IV ignition on your supercharged engines with a CD ignition system. I'd like to see the dyno sheet. My gut tells me your HP gains were in the upper rpm band.
Do I think every engine needs a super duper ignition, no. Most of the time stock is fine. But do I think high performance aftermarket ignitions are "junk" or "worthless snake oil"? Absolutley not!
The stock thunderbolt ignition is a very good and reliable ignition. However, it is not in the same league as a aftermarket high performance capacitive discharge system.
The reason for multiple sparks below 3300RPM from a CD ignition is for a reason. The CD ignition, by design, provides a very short duration, high output spark, when compared to a stock inductive ignition's, long duration, weaker spark. So, what engineers at crane, msd, etc, have done is made the CD boxes so that they fire multiple sparks at low rpm. At high RPM, the multiple sparks simply aren't needed. Theoretically, some say you can run a tad more ignition lead with a CD ignition, since the spark duration is shorter.
While stock ignitions have their place, and do well for what they are, are limited. There IS a difference between a 450HP N/A 5000RPM engine, and a 700, 800, 900hp, and so on, forced induction, 6000+rpm engine, when it comes to ignition requirements. When you get into radical cam profiles, superchargers, big carburetors, boost, low vacuum signals at low speeds, the stock ignitions start lacking. I've seen it plenty of times, where engines like this, run soooooo much better simply by locking the timing out. The OE were so scared of detonation, they had some modules/springs, that wouldn't allow full ignition advance to 5000RPM!! I believe the 525SC was one of them.
Without getting into dwell, coil saturation, primary and secondary voltages, and all kinds of tech talk, in certain scenerios, I can see where a high output CD ignition, will lay the smack down on a stock setup. Some write off aftermarket ignitions as being "snake oil" and will be content bolting in a HEI from a 1975 Caprice classic, and feel good about it, and bolting in a higher output coil. I wonder why the Crane, MSD, Daytona sensors, and other high performance igntions, have a 10 gauge direct battery feed with capacitors and what not, to store energy and provide the secondary side with ample voltage. And the stock ignition has a single 16 or 18 gauge wire coming from the ignition switch 20 ft away.
In my opinion, "Likefastboats", you did good by replacing the stock T-IV ignition on your supercharged engines with a CD ignition system. I'd like to see the dyno sheet. My gut tells me your HP gains were in the upper rpm band.
Do I think every engine needs a super duper ignition, no. Most of the time stock is fine. But do I think high performance aftermarket ignitions are "junk" or "worthless snake oil"? Absolutley not!
04-19-2013, 09:28 AM
#24
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I used to hear all the time about guy's bragging on how great their stock GM HEI ignition is/was. Were they great for 1975 when they first were introduced to replace points style ignitions? Yes. But they don't really hold a candle to whats available nowadays.
I wonder why mercury racing used a Standard Thunderbolt ign on everything up to the 800SC. But on the 900SC/1000sc, they used a CD style ignition. 800SC max RPM=4600-5000. 900SC/1000sc max RPM=5800-6000 hmm. Considering they probably had a slew of thunderbolt setups laying around, why the change to a CD box?
Last edited by MILD THUNDER; 04-19-2013 at 09:32 AM.
04-19-2013, 09:32 AM
#25
My engine builder has told me he has seen as much as a 40hp gain on the dyno with the MSD HVC II coils. My brother in law has done some work with Ford engineering on some special spark plugs that they gained 30hp from. I am of the theory that a larger, hotter, longer spark creates a bigger, faster, flame front and thus more power. When I was a kid and had a 14:1 go cart race engine running 14,000rpm just spark plugs made a huge difference. When it comes to horsepower, everything matters, no detail is to small to overlook. Remember in the words of Smokey Yunick, "It's easier to find 100 ways to make 1hp than it is to find 1 to make 100hp". As far as the factory stuff goes, you have to evaluate their goals verses your goals. Their CFO wields a bigger stick than ours (sometimes). Their goal is to get it done for the least cost, my goal is to get it done for the most gain. Just do a spec check, the current, dwell, and voltage coming out of a really good ignition system is significantly better than anything factory. Factory motors aren't designed around 10:1 compression running at 6,000rpm either. Just my 2 cents.
And for the record I never said anything about an ignition system "introducing" more fuel. What I said is with higher voltage and a better flame you will burn more of the fuel that is in the cylinder instead of blowing unburnt fuel out of the exhaust. More fuel burned, bigger explosion, more power. It's not rocket sceince. I'm not new to this thing of making horsepower. I have been building race motors since I was 18 years old, I'm now 54. I sure wish I could post my dyno sheets today while this thread is still hot but my wife tells me they are in our boating file at my lake house. This thread started out as a simple question as to what ingition is good. I thought I would help posting my recent expierince on the dyno. I never expected it to turn into a pissing match over stock and aftermarket ignitions.
04-19-2013, 09:43 AM
#26
I have to disagree with you guys, regarding the "MSD" VS. "thunderbolt" stuff.
The stock thunderbolt ignition is a very good and reliable ignition. However, it is not in the same league as a aftermarket high performance capacitive discharge system.
The reason for multiple sparks below 3300RPM from a CD ignition is for a reason. The CD ignition, by design, provides a very short duration, high output spark, when compared to a stock inductive ignition's, long duration, weaker spark. So, what engineers at crane, msd, etc, have done is made the CD boxes so that they fire multiple sparks at low rpm. At high RPM, the multiple sparks simply aren't needed. Theoretically, some say you can run a tad more ignition lead with a CD ignition, since the spark duration is shorter.
While stock ignitions have their place, and do well for what they are, are limited. There IS a difference between a 450HP N/A 5000RPM engine, and a 700, 800, 900hp, and so on, forced induction, 6000+rpm engine, when it comes to ignition requirements. When you get into radical cam profiles, superchargers, big carburetors, boost, low vacuum signals at low speeds, the stock ignitions start lacking. I've seen it plenty of times, where engines like this, run soooooo much better simply by locking the timing out. The OE were so scared of detonation, they had some modules/springs, that wouldn't allow full ignition advance to 5000RPM!! I believe the 525SC was one of them.
Without getting into dwell, coil saturation, primary and secondary voltages, and all kinds of tech talk, in certain scenerios, I can see where a high output CD ignition, will lay the smack down on a stock setup. Some write off aftermarket ignitions as being "snake oil" and will be content bolting in a HEI from a 1975 Caprice classic, and feel good about it, and bolting in a higher output coil. I wonder why the Crane, MSD, Daytona sensors, and other high performance igntions, have a 10 gauge direct battery feed with capacitors and what not, to store energy and provide the secondary side with ample voltage. And the stock ignition has a single 16 or 18 gauge wire coming from the ignition switch 20 ft away.
In my opinion, "Likefastboats", you did good by replacing the stock T-IV ignition on your supercharged engines with a CD ignition system. I'd like to see the dyno sheet. My gut tells me your HP gains were in the upper rpm band.
Do I think every engine needs a super duper ignition, no. Most of the time stock is fine. But do I think high performance aftermarket ignitions are "junk" or "worthless snake oil"? Absolutley not!
The stock thunderbolt ignition is a very good and reliable ignition. However, it is not in the same league as a aftermarket high performance capacitive discharge system.
The reason for multiple sparks below 3300RPM from a CD ignition is for a reason. The CD ignition, by design, provides a very short duration, high output spark, when compared to a stock inductive ignition's, long duration, weaker spark. So, what engineers at crane, msd, etc, have done is made the CD boxes so that they fire multiple sparks at low rpm. At high RPM, the multiple sparks simply aren't needed. Theoretically, some say you can run a tad more ignition lead with a CD ignition, since the spark duration is shorter.
While stock ignitions have their place, and do well for what they are, are limited. There IS a difference between a 450HP N/A 5000RPM engine, and a 700, 800, 900hp, and so on, forced induction, 6000+rpm engine, when it comes to ignition requirements. When you get into radical cam profiles, superchargers, big carburetors, boost, low vacuum signals at low speeds, the stock ignitions start lacking. I've seen it plenty of times, where engines like this, run soooooo much better simply by locking the timing out. The OE were so scared of detonation, they had some modules/springs, that wouldn't allow full ignition advance to 5000RPM!! I believe the 525SC was one of them.
Without getting into dwell, coil saturation, primary and secondary voltages, and all kinds of tech talk, in certain scenerios, I can see where a high output CD ignition, will lay the smack down on a stock setup. Some write off aftermarket ignitions as being "snake oil" and will be content bolting in a HEI from a 1975 Caprice classic, and feel good about it, and bolting in a higher output coil. I wonder why the Crane, MSD, Daytona sensors, and other high performance igntions, have a 10 gauge direct battery feed with capacitors and what not, to store energy and provide the secondary side with ample voltage. And the stock ignition has a single 16 or 18 gauge wire coming from the ignition switch 20 ft away.
In my opinion, "Likefastboats", you did good by replacing the stock T-IV ignition on your supercharged engines with a CD ignition system. I'd like to see the dyno sheet. My gut tells me your HP gains were in the upper rpm band.
Do I think every engine needs a super duper ignition, no. Most of the time stock is fine. But do I think high performance aftermarket ignitions are "junk" or "worthless snake oil"? Absolutley not!
04-19-2013, 04:38 PM
#28
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ok boys and girls,let me clarify,i thought that likesfastboats was speaking for the op,i now see that is not the case but he somewhat hijacked the thread talking about his engines,that he failed to mention are supercharged so,will the op benefit from the addition of a msd ignition on his basically stock n/a engine,imo the answer is no,will likesfastboats supercharged engines benefit from the msd ignition,absolutely,as the boost goes up so does the difficulty to ignite the fuel in the cylinder,now the hotter spark can fire the plug and start the combustion cycle.if i did not believe the msd is necessary with the supercharged engine,i would not have them in my supercharged boats.i cant make it any more clear than that.now if anyone wants to tell me i am wrong,im all ears and always like to learn,so lets have the facts,just the facts please.
04-19-2013, 04:59 PM
#29
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ok boys and girls,let me clarify,i thought that likesfastboats was speaking for the op,i now see that is not the case but he somewhat hijacked the thread talking about his engines,that he failed to mention are supercharged so,will the op benefit from the addition of a msd ignition on his basically stock n/a engine,imo the answer is no,will likesfastboats supercharged engines benefit from the msd ignition,absolutely,as the boost goes up so does the difficulty to ignite the fuel in the cylinder,now the hotter spark can fire the plug and start the combustion cycle.if i did not believe the msd is necessary with the supercharged engine,i would not have them in my supercharged boats.i cant make it any more clear than that.now if anyone wants to tell me i am wrong,im all ears and always like to learn,so lets have the facts,just the facts please.
