Winterize Question
09-09-2002, 01:33 PM
#1
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Thread Starter
Winterize Question
Ok Guys, hear it goes. I have always winterized previous boats I have owned (350's, 454's w/o oil cooler). Last year I bought a boat with a HP500 in it. That beautiful blue motor is making me be very cautious when it comes to winter storage. I consider myself to be pretty handy and knowledgeable about mechincal items, etc. But this is stumping me.
I have studied the entire water flow diagram (raw water pump, oil cooler, pw steering cooler, etc) and understand about and when the t-stat opens and that the entire system holds about 20 quarts. I know how to winterize the old fashion way but I am looking for a shortcut so I do not have to stand on my head and pull those damn hoses and plugs. I removed the t-stat and planned on using the West Marine flush kit to run 5 gallons of pink a/f through my fresh water flush on the boat. It took FOREVER to get 5 gallons through it (by gravity feed only), and it got rather hot (175 degrees). Even though pink anti-freeze was coming out of the outdrive, rather slowly, I was not satisified. I had a Propel. Gylcer. tester, and the a/f in the block did not test to freeze point. I plan on having my dealer do it again this year. I am curious though what went wrong. Do I need a bilge pump to provide pressure for a quicker a/f flow? I read a few posts last year on this topic. The pink stuff scares me anyway due to its 12 degree freeze point and the -50 degree burst protection.
Sorry for the lengthly post but I am curious about this whole process as I have read so many different methods. The last I want to do if I do decide to do this myself is freeze the damn thing.
I have studied the entire water flow diagram (raw water pump, oil cooler, pw steering cooler, etc) and understand about and when the t-stat opens and that the entire system holds about 20 quarts. I know how to winterize the old fashion way but I am looking for a shortcut so I do not have to stand on my head and pull those damn hoses and plugs. I removed the t-stat and planned on using the West Marine flush kit to run 5 gallons of pink a/f through my fresh water flush on the boat. It took FOREVER to get 5 gallons through it (by gravity feed only), and it got rather hot (175 degrees). Even though pink anti-freeze was coming out of the outdrive, rather slowly, I was not satisified. I had a Propel. Gylcer. tester, and the a/f in the block did not test to freeze point. I plan on having my dealer do it again this year. I am curious though what went wrong. Do I need a bilge pump to provide pressure for a quicker a/f flow? I read a few posts last year on this topic. The pink stuff scares me anyway due to its 12 degree freeze point and the -50 degree burst protection.
Sorry for the lengthly post but I am curious about this whole process as I have read so many different methods. The last I want to do if I do decide to do this myself is freeze the damn thing.
09-09-2002, 01:44 PM
#2
Geronimo36
Gold Member
The Pink Stuff
Sacadanga,
I have never had a problem winterizing the HP500. One thing that should be noted is that you need to drain the entire system, and block before adding the anti-freeze. Otherwise all you are doing is mixing 5 gallons of antifreeze with the water that is already in the block.
What I always recommend doing is running the boat until it is at operating temp from a garden hose. Then drain the whole system. Drain the headders, drain the block, etc. Then start it up with the 5 gallon jug of antifreeze, (gravity feed should be sufficient, as if its not sucking water, then your water pump is bad.
If you are worried about the freezing caracteristics of the antifreeze you can always opt for the more expensive -100F antifreeze. Its more expensive, but if you are in very cold weather it may be worth it.
From my past experience it takes weeks of below freezing temps to freeze, and or crack a block.
I have never had a problem winterizing the HP500. One thing that should be noted is that you need to drain the entire system, and block before adding the anti-freeze. Otherwise all you are doing is mixing 5 gallons of antifreeze with the water that is already in the block.
What I always recommend doing is running the boat until it is at operating temp from a garden hose. Then drain the whole system. Drain the headders, drain the block, etc. Then start it up with the 5 gallon jug of antifreeze, (gravity feed should be sufficient, as if its not sucking water, then your water pump is bad.
If you are worried about the freezing caracteristics of the antifreeze you can always opt for the more expensive -100F antifreeze. Its more expensive, but if you are in very cold weather it may be worth it.
From my past experience it takes weeks of below freezing temps to freeze, and or crack a block.
09-09-2002, 03:20 PM
#3
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Thread Starter
Thanks for the reply. I'm sure the impellor is ok, as I run the boat with no temp. problems, and it seems ok when I run it on the hose. I was going to take it apart sometime and make sure no gas from the fuel pump has seeped into the gear oil (as I heard they always do after a couple years, nice design
). I planned on changing impeller for the hell of it.
So if my impeller is ok, then it's a mystery why it pumps the a/f so slow and yours does not. Maybe the kit I am using is different?
On using stronger a/f, the directions with my kit say that it could be to thick for a pump to suck up when undiluted.
Never seem to get a break....
). I planned on changing impeller for the hell of it.So if my impeller is ok, then it's a mystery why it pumps the a/f so slow and yours does not. Maybe the kit I am using is different?
On using stronger a/f, the directions with my kit say that it could be to thick for a pump to suck up when undiluted.
Never seem to get a break....
Last edited by Sacandaga; 09-09-2002 at 03:24 PM.
09-09-2002, 09:46 PM
#4
Guest
Posts: n/a
standard auto antifreez?
Hi:
For use inside of engines, I always use standard automotive antifreeze, diluted with water as appropriate for the necessary temperature protection (chart on antifreeze bottle). The automotive antifreeze is designed to protect the various metals inside an engine. The standard $2 bottle pink RV antifreeze is designed for water systems not engines. For what its worth, “real” engine antifreeze is recommended in cars and boats with closed cooling systems year round, therefore certainly acceptable for winter storage.
The only concern is Environmental, even the Propylene Glycol mixtures are not “legal” to dump into the environment in the spring.
For use inside of engines, I always use standard automotive antifreeze, diluted with water as appropriate for the necessary temperature protection (chart on antifreeze bottle). The automotive antifreeze is designed to protect the various metals inside an engine. The standard $2 bottle pink RV antifreeze is designed for water systems not engines. For what its worth, “real” engine antifreeze is recommended in cars and boats with closed cooling systems year round, therefore certainly acceptable for winter storage.
The only concern is Environmental, even the Propylene Glycol mixtures are not “legal” to dump into the environment in the spring.
09-10-2002, 01:20 AM
#5
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Location: Mexico,NY
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Sacandaga, I agree with Panther, drain the cooling sys. before you run the a/f thru it, otherwise you end up seriuosly diluting the a/f and we know how warm Gloversville is in the winter! Now that youv'e got something special for a motor, give it the special treatment it deserves. Don't let a marina touch it. The last time I let a marina winterize my Scarab, was in 96 and that winter I put IMCO exhuast on it. When I started pulling the cooling sys. apart to plumb in the new exhaust, I was shocked to discover chuncks of pink ice falling out of the hoses. The entire cooling sys. was frozen. Thankfully the block didn't crack, but I winterize it myself since. Pull the thermostat and drain everything. Put a/f in the block and anything I suspect to have water in it. No problems or ice since... Have a good winter, Chuck
09-10-2002, 08:07 AM
#6
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Thread Starter
Thanks for the imput guys. I know what your saying about some marinas. Fortunately, this guy is acutally one of the few that takes good care of his picky custumers. Believe it or not, he lays on the blanket that I put on the bench seat and works with his shoes off. I stopped in one day unannounced and caught him.
My questions still remains that I am concerned about how slow it sucked up the anti-freeze on the fresh water flush. I heard last year how guys on this site used a bilge pump which greatly assisted in providing good pressure to suck it in fast. And if I drain first, the water from the pump, oil cooler, and pws cooler will still end up in the block and dilute the a/f. Maybe if I run 5 gallons thru, drain, and run 5 gallons thru again. (pink stuff is cheap). I hate to go round and round on this, as many methods obviously work. I really just wondered about the bilge pump method. Thanks Again
My questions still remains that I am concerned about how slow it sucked up the anti-freeze on the fresh water flush. I heard last year how guys on this site used a bilge pump which greatly assisted in providing good pressure to suck it in fast. And if I drain first, the water from the pump, oil cooler, and pws cooler will still end up in the block and dilute the a/f. Maybe if I run 5 gallons thru, drain, and run 5 gallons thru again. (pink stuff is cheap). I hate to go round and round on this, as many methods obviously work. I really just wondered about the bilge pump method. Thanks Again
09-10-2002, 10:28 AM
#7
Registered
I use the gravity method:
Drain engine, use 5 gal bucket with valve and tap in the bottom and a hose end. \ screw onto ears & install ears on the drive ( or fresh water flush adapter......set bucket on swim step, fill with the -50 stuff, open valve and it feeds to the pump via gravity. It essentially will them fill the engine as the bucket is above the level of the engine. It will not however empty the oil cooler... you must drain first.
Drain engine, use 5 gal bucket with valve and tap in the bottom and a hose end. \ screw onto ears & install ears on the drive ( or fresh water flush adapter......set bucket on swim step, fill with the -50 stuff, open valve and it feeds to the pump via gravity. It essentially will them fill the engine as the bucket is above the level of the engine. It will not however empty the oil cooler... you must drain first.
09-10-2002, 11:08 AM
#8
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Since I don't get as nasty cold here as you NY guys, you can feel free to take my experiences and Sh#tcan them. It gets in the single digits in TN.
I've lost oil coolers, trans coolers, freeze plugs, manifold risers, and blocks through my long and careless boating years.
A GM bigblock with no winterization, full of water, sitting in the lake, WILL freeze and crack during a cold snap. January: water temp in low 40's, daily temps 48/28 for about a week, electric heaters in boat (fiberglass houseboat) and in bilge - air vents stuffed with rags. Cold snap - down to teens day and night for 2 days. Marina lost electricity the night between the 2 days (so we gotta figure heaters were on up to that point - I did check them 3 days earlier). Marina did not call anybody, but a boatowner did go and check his boat and called some folks, they called folks, they called folks, I got called. I went to the boat and electricity was back on by then. Boat was warm in bilge again (49). Went daily to check boat till spring (no more power loss). During this period, there was no water noticed in the oil. Trans/oil cooler (Crusader combo unit) was split so I did remove them both and resoldered them up.
Spring. Opened sea cocks (after replacing one cracked glass bowl) and fired er up. Water in oil - both motors (454/350hp Crusaders). Pressure checked coolers - fine. Freeze plugs in. No cracks in exhaust. Pulled intake - cracked bigger than cr&p in the lifter galleys - both of em. This was with thermostat heaters in the eng. compartment set at 45 degrees, daily temps in the 48/28 range, water temp above 40, and ONE day of weather n the teens with the heaters off.
I currently winterize my 502 Bravo1's on my formula by tapping into the seawater pump hose and sucking 5 gal of automotive antifreeze thru each motor - then I pull the hose off the circulating pump and pour another 2 gallons down the t-stat housing to get it in the block better (overflows out the circ pump).
I have the fitting set up so it only takes a coupla minutes to get the hose off and the "sucker hose" on the raw pump. I can hit it and be finished inside of a leisurely hour which includes placing the heaters in the cabin and eng compartment, emptying and cleaning out the fridge, draining the freshwater and adding pink AF, and saying bye bye for a few months.
I figure the entire external loop (coolers, exhaust mans, risers, raw pump, hoses) get the first dose and the second dose makes sure the sides of the block have a good concentration of AF (plus the block drains down to circ pump level to give plenty of airspace for a light freeze if it somehow happened..
I've lost oil coolers, trans coolers, freeze plugs, manifold risers, and blocks through my long and careless boating years.
A GM bigblock with no winterization, full of water, sitting in the lake, WILL freeze and crack during a cold snap. January: water temp in low 40's, daily temps 48/28 for about a week, electric heaters in boat (fiberglass houseboat) and in bilge - air vents stuffed with rags. Cold snap - down to teens day and night for 2 days. Marina lost electricity the night between the 2 days (so we gotta figure heaters were on up to that point - I did check them 3 days earlier). Marina did not call anybody, but a boatowner did go and check his boat and called some folks, they called folks, they called folks, I got called. I went to the boat and electricity was back on by then. Boat was warm in bilge again (49). Went daily to check boat till spring (no more power loss). During this period, there was no water noticed in the oil. Trans/oil cooler (Crusader combo unit) was split so I did remove them both and resoldered them up.
Spring. Opened sea cocks (after replacing one cracked glass bowl) and fired er up. Water in oil - both motors (454/350hp Crusaders). Pressure checked coolers - fine. Freeze plugs in. No cracks in exhaust. Pulled intake - cracked bigger than cr&p in the lifter galleys - both of em. This was with thermostat heaters in the eng. compartment set at 45 degrees, daily temps in the 48/28 range, water temp above 40, and ONE day of weather n the teens with the heaters off.
I currently winterize my 502 Bravo1's on my formula by tapping into the seawater pump hose and sucking 5 gal of automotive antifreeze thru each motor - then I pull the hose off the circulating pump and pour another 2 gallons down the t-stat housing to get it in the block better (overflows out the circ pump).
I have the fitting set up so it only takes a coupla minutes to get the hose off and the "sucker hose" on the raw pump. I can hit it and be finished inside of a leisurely hour which includes placing the heaters in the cabin and eng compartment, emptying and cleaning out the fridge, draining the freshwater and adding pink AF, and saying bye bye for a few months.
I figure the entire external loop (coolers, exhaust mans, risers, raw pump, hoses) get the first dose and the second dose makes sure the sides of the block have a good concentration of AF (plus the block drains down to circ pump level to give plenty of airspace for a light freeze if it somehow happened..
09-10-2002, 01:59 PM
#9
Geronimo36
Gold Member
Sacandaga
Now that you mention the A/F sucking problem again. I remember I had a customer who wanted me to use his winterizing system that he bought from west marine, or boat US, can't remember. The motors wouldn't suck up the antifreeze either. It took forever.
At first I thought he had a water pump problem. But then I said screw it, I am gonna use my own system. I hooked up my own jugs to the muffs, and away we went. No problems.
After looking over this crappy system that he bought for like $30, I realized that first of all the hose that goes from the jug to the muffs was too small. Second problem was that the valve that was on the jug was too small as well.
This sounds funny but the best thing that ever worked for me was a 6 gallon gasoline container. I drilled out the air vent so it was as large as I could make it. Connected a 5/8 in hose to it with a plastic garden hose end, and it works flawlessley. Also another advantage of this was you can sit the bottle on the transom, and as soon as you fire up the motor tilt the bottle on its side and the flow starts.
I have been doing it like that for over 10 years, and never had a flow problem. I have also never had a problem with flow for the -100F antifreeze. The only reason I don't use automotive antifreeze is because of its environmental effect.
Give you dog a little bit of that crap and see what happens? I don't know about you guys but I like to swim in the water that I go boating in.
At first I thought he had a water pump problem. But then I said screw it, I am gonna use my own system. I hooked up my own jugs to the muffs, and away we went. No problems.
After looking over this crappy system that he bought for like $30, I realized that first of all the hose that goes from the jug to the muffs was too small. Second problem was that the valve that was on the jug was too small as well.
This sounds funny but the best thing that ever worked for me was a 6 gallon gasoline container. I drilled out the air vent so it was as large as I could make it. Connected a 5/8 in hose to it with a plastic garden hose end, and it works flawlessley. Also another advantage of this was you can sit the bottle on the transom, and as soon as you fire up the motor tilt the bottle on its side and the flow starts.
I have been doing it like that for over 10 years, and never had a flow problem. I have also never had a problem with flow for the -100F antifreeze. The only reason I don't use automotive antifreeze is because of its environmental effect.
Give you dog a little bit of that crap and see what happens? I don't know about you guys but I like to swim in the water that I go boating in.
09-10-2002, 02:33 PM
#10
Registered
Thread Starter
Panther, I think your right about my kit. It is crap. I actually drilled out the breather hole and connected the 5/8 clear hose directly to the container with plastic plumbing. I too did not think that it would flow through the cheesy valve that they included in the kit as holes were very small. Perhaps it still needs work. It drains out 2 1/2 gallons of water in about 30 seconds if you do a test run with it, I thought that would be fine. Sounds stupid that I did all these silly tests, but I just wanted to be sure. Maybe the fact that my factory fresh water flush has a prettly long and windy hose before it reaches the raw water pump... Humm... This definitely could drive me to drink
