Falcon

Still here! Just noticed the email notice. Been a while since this thread and have to get back into it.
Without actual bleeder valves you probably won't get every bit of air out of the system, but the reservoir level should be good and you shouldn't get any airation of the oil in the system. After some running time the few air bubbles that remain will probably work themselves back to the helm and eventually back to the reservoir. The main reasons for this procedure is to avoid airation of the oil and also to maintain a consistent reservoir level. The system will be fairly solid (a slight movement is probably normal until the last few bubbles work themselves out). With the engine/pump running the steering will get tighter as there will be some constant pressure in both the R & L lines, so don't worry about that last bit of air too much.
As for the tiebar, did you notice that if you push one drive towards the other with the tiebar off, they actually move towards each other. And if you pull them apart, they move opposite each other. Yes, if it wasn't for the tiebar, the loads wouldn't get transfered to the cylinders! This does make it easy to reattach the tiebar, just push or pull the drives until it fits. If you are trying to put the tiebar back in at full steering lock, that may be your problem. There is probably just enough toe adjustment to have one drive bottomed before the other. Just turn the wheel towards center a bit and then hook up the tiebar.
I hope I answered your questions. It's difficult to explain, much easier to show someone.

US1 Fountain

iTrader: (1)

Falcon,
I appreciate the info and help.
Thank You.

Jerry

kingsize

Thanks Falcon! Thats what I call some good information.

2112

Falconer;

Maybe a dumb choice but since you are quite knowledgeable I thought I would run this by you.

I have the same Fountain set up as US 1. What we did was loosen one connection at the ram at a time,Just loosened not off, and with both engines running, went lock to lock several times. We could see air spitting out (with fluid of course) and continued until it was fluid only and then tightened everything back up.

It seemed to work but I want to be sure I did not miss something.

Any suggestions?

Falcon

Yes, this works but makes a mess. It's like having the bleeder valves I mentioned but without being able to put a hose on and catch the oil. It also requires the engines running, spraying water out the tailpipes while you are trying to crack lines open. You must still watch the reservoir close to make sure you don't let the pump draw any air, once the oil foams it makes it more difficult to get the air out. If you don't have bleeder valves, have filled the lines/cylinders using my method and think that it still isn't quite solid enough, cracking the line fittings will work to get the last bit of air out. I don't think it's a good idea to start with a new/dry system and just crack the lines. There is a lot of air to get out of those lines. You could just as well use the described method to prefill everything and if it still doesn't seem solid enough that it could work itself out, then crack the lines with the engine running (or hook up the bleeder hoses on the Merc ITS and open the valves). I don't like to make a mess!

US1 Fountain

iTrader: (1)

So with a line cracked a bit, there will always be pressure on that line no matter which way the ram is going? I'm assuming fluid either from the bore of the ram or from the line will be the fluid supply. So no chance of air being sucked in regardless of ram travel direction?

Falcon

When I have cracked open the line connections I have just opened the lines that were being pressurized by the pump, but in theory it shouldn't matter if the pump is running. You got me thinking on this one! When the pump is supplying fluid to the helm and you turn the wheel the oil "returned from the cylinder(s) is ported in the helm back to the reservoir which means it shouldn't be "pulling" oil from the cylinder(s). This would mean it shouldn't pull air in to the cracked fitting especially because the piston should be trying to push the oil out, through the cracked fitting or the line back to the helm. I am going to have to try this as it may be easier, but messier, than always trying to get at the cylinder line connections with the engine running.
One thing that I have seen done by a race team that uses #6's, they "strap" the drives at full lock then crack open the cylinder fittings that would pressurize turning the opposite direction and "very slowly" turn the wheel with the engine/pump running to push the air out of that direction lines, then repeat the procedure against the other lock. It worked, but was very messy! You also have to turn the wheel very slow, you could hurt someone if a strap snapped or you could break what ever you attached the strap to.
Well, I think I better get some sleep, a short night tonight!

Nordicflame

iTrader: (4)

Falcon, please check your PM
Thanks

plumbers crack

just installed dual ram single pump with full hydro helm ,ready to start up although i dont have resovoir on my pump,maybe easier to do start up that way.then again reading the procedure sounds complicated,but ill down load and stand next to the boat and try to absorb the info any other tips on new start up?

Falcon

It's not really complicated, just complicated to explain. It's easier if you understand how the system works and can think through what would work.

1) 2 basic flow circuits that must be filled/bled
a) pump to helm to cooler to reservoir
b) "R" & "L" connection(s) between the helm and the cylinders

2) The "pump" circuit can self bleed "if" the pump doesn't draw in air from the reservoir. NordicHeat brought up another method in a PM that I haven't mentioned in the past, you can turn the pump with an electric drill motor to fill and bleed the pump circuit. It's a lot easier to keep from drawing air into the pump because you can closely watch the level and stop turning the pump. Drawing air into the pump is the most important part of filling the system.

3) I fill the "R-helm-L" circuit lines by removing a line connection from a cylinder(if you don't have ITS style bleeders) and turn the wheel in a direction to fill that line. This is done with piston position in that cylinder closest to the line connection. Well designed cylinders have very little air space in the cylinder at this point. When the line is full, I reconnect it. I then repeat this procedure for each line connection. It also helps to have the cylinders disconnected from the drive(s). The little secret here is that the helm will pull oil from the reservoir if there isn't any returned oil from the opposite line (watch the reservoir level).

What can make things a bit more complicated is multi pump systems. Usually they really aren't bad if hooked up properly because they have plenty of capacity with the required common reservoir.

Let me know how it goes.