Blistering facts
02-29-2004, 07:12 PM
#1
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Blistering facts
http://www.resinnavigator.org/html/benefits.htm
Use vinyl ester resins and blistering is unheard of. I talked to a few surveyors and whereas vaccuum bagging is great ...nothing substitutes for vinyl ester resins...know I know Foun, Formula do use this...does Pantera and Cigarette? Fountain will warranty up to 6 years on any defect....including blisters..as will Formula but I think for 5 years....not many in the industry match this. Searays have to go out for example with bottom paint these days....
http://www.searay.com/index.asp?display=tech&tab=0
checkout the video on this link...Searay uses robots with chopperguns to make their boats now....a surveyor said they are equal to bayliners no with only a layer of wovenroving...
....he surveyed a Fountain and Formla and said they were top drawer...Cigarette has been a bit on the "overbulit" side from day one...
.....the only cruise this serveyor would recommned these days is a Viking or Ocean...the rest have less than 1/32" of sideline buildup...
...scary but true that sport boats are so much safer...
Use vinyl ester resins and blistering is unheard of. I talked to a few surveyors and whereas vaccuum bagging is great ...nothing substitutes for vinyl ester resins...know I know Foun, Formula do use this...does Pantera and Cigarette? Fountain will warranty up to 6 years on any defect....including blisters..as will Formula but I think for 5 years....not many in the industry match this. Searays have to go out for example with bottom paint these days....
http://www.searay.com/index.asp?display=tech&tab=0
checkout the video on this link...Searay uses robots with chopperguns to make their boats now....a surveyor said they are equal to bayliners no with only a layer of wovenroving...
....he surveyed a Fountain and Formla and said they were top drawer...Cigarette has been a bit on the "overbulit" side from day one...
.....the only cruise this serveyor would recommned these days is a Viking or Ocean...the rest have less than 1/32" of sideline buildup...
...scary but true that sport boats are so much safer...
02-29-2004, 08:13 PM
#2
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Platinum Member
Nice try LPA. But vinylester only adds an additional MEASURE of resistance, it does not make a hull "blister proof".
And a Sea Ray basher? Now I get to have some fun...
Sea Ray uses robots to lay in the gelcoat. True.
Rather than that being a shortcut, it is an excellent way to ensure even thickness of "non structural" gelcoat. Keeps it from being too thick in the corners and too thin along the overlaps. No human can lay gel on as evenly as a 'bot. Same with your car paint. I can take a paint thickness meter and run it all over your factory paint and show you an incredibly even application of paint. Take it to your best body shop and let them paint it - I'll show you that the thickness varies dramatically.
Gelcoat, just like paint, has an OPTIMUM thickness. Too thick and you trade off strength and encourage cracking of the gel over time. Too thin and you can see it.
As far as chopper work? Are you kidding? I don't know of any big name boat mfr (including Bayliner) that is making HULLS out of chop guns. Granted, I've only been to 2 SeaRay plants watching them build boats. While they might have waited till I left to fire up the chop guns, they were laying mat and rolling it out just like you'd hope they were.
Even the "cost cutter" Sea Ray 185 is a hand laid hull.
So what is that chopper gun doing in the video?? It is providing the smooth inner liner over the balsa cored sides of the Sea Ray hull - NOT building the hull structure. (I'll be glad to provide a holesaw slug of a Sea Ray hull side to illustrate this).
Vinylester and Blistering UNHEARD OF ???
You don't get around much do you?
I own a boat with vinylester in the first 2 layers against the gelcoat (yes, the rest of the lamination is polyester).
After 4 years in the water with the same bottom paint on it, I pulled it and it had about 20 significant blisters. They were repaired at no cost by Sea Ray's 5 year blister policy.
And the comment regarding Sea Rays needing bottom paint from the factory? I assure you they will let you delete the bottom paint - and they will still honor their hull warranty. Fact is, boats that are not stored on lifts or dry racks SHOULD have bottom paint, regardless of their construction. It is for AntiFouling reasons, which no type of resin will provide.
Are you of the opinion that bottom paint is used as an anti-blistering agent on some mfrs hulls? This is ludicrous, as bottom paint is NOT intended to be a water barrier under any circumstance. In fact, the outer layer of most bottom paints is expressly designed to allow water PENETRATION in order to allow proper leaching of the biocides required to prevent algae and barnacle growth. (Yes, there are epoxy based hull paints, but only the compounds labeled as water barriers are designed to restrict water entry - and those are not designed to be an appearance coat).
Hull blistering is an issue we are ALL interested in.
AND
There are a good many opinions on their causes.
The simple fact is that blisters are caused by WATER.
And several things can be done to make it more difficult for water to permeate and form blisters.
1) Use premium resin (yes, vinylester)
2) Use long-fiber matting with the raw ends tucked inwards.
3) Ensure adequate wetting between the gel and the glass
4) Concentrate on eliminating voids or air pockets.
Those are the primary steps that can be taken in the war against blisters.
This, however, will NOT give you a blister-proof hull.
ONLY a multi-coat application of a specialized epoxy based water barriercoat will guarantee no blisters - and even that can be scratched thru and fail.
I've got my list of mfrs whose boats I respect more than others, but blisters are not restricted to a given set of "brands" of boats.
Obviously, a full epoxy OuterLimits will be virtually immune to blisters, but ALL fiberglass and resin hulls possess the propensity to blister.
And a Sea Ray basher? Now I get to have some fun...
Sea Ray uses robots to lay in the gelcoat. True.
Rather than that being a shortcut, it is an excellent way to ensure even thickness of "non structural" gelcoat. Keeps it from being too thick in the corners and too thin along the overlaps. No human can lay gel on as evenly as a 'bot. Same with your car paint. I can take a paint thickness meter and run it all over your factory paint and show you an incredibly even application of paint. Take it to your best body shop and let them paint it - I'll show you that the thickness varies dramatically.
Gelcoat, just like paint, has an OPTIMUM thickness. Too thick and you trade off strength and encourage cracking of the gel over time. Too thin and you can see it.
As far as chopper work? Are you kidding? I don't know of any big name boat mfr (including Bayliner) that is making HULLS out of chop guns. Granted, I've only been to 2 SeaRay plants watching them build boats. While they might have waited till I left to fire up the chop guns, they were laying mat and rolling it out just like you'd hope they were.
Even the "cost cutter" Sea Ray 185 is a hand laid hull.
So what is that chopper gun doing in the video?? It is providing the smooth inner liner over the balsa cored sides of the Sea Ray hull - NOT building the hull structure. (I'll be glad to provide a holesaw slug of a Sea Ray hull side to illustrate this).
Vinylester and Blistering UNHEARD OF ???
You don't get around much do you?
I own a boat with vinylester in the first 2 layers against the gelcoat (yes, the rest of the lamination is polyester).
After 4 years in the water with the same bottom paint on it, I pulled it and it had about 20 significant blisters. They were repaired at no cost by Sea Ray's 5 year blister policy.
And the comment regarding Sea Rays needing bottom paint from the factory? I assure you they will let you delete the bottom paint - and they will still honor their hull warranty. Fact is, boats that are not stored on lifts or dry racks SHOULD have bottom paint, regardless of their construction. It is for AntiFouling reasons, which no type of resin will provide.
Are you of the opinion that bottom paint is used as an anti-blistering agent on some mfrs hulls? This is ludicrous, as bottom paint is NOT intended to be a water barrier under any circumstance. In fact, the outer layer of most bottom paints is expressly designed to allow water PENETRATION in order to allow proper leaching of the biocides required to prevent algae and barnacle growth. (Yes, there are epoxy based hull paints, but only the compounds labeled as water barriers are designed to restrict water entry - and those are not designed to be an appearance coat).
Hull blistering is an issue we are ALL interested in.
AND
There are a good many opinions on their causes.
The simple fact is that blisters are caused by WATER.
And several things can be done to make it more difficult for water to permeate and form blisters.
1) Use premium resin (yes, vinylester)
2) Use long-fiber matting with the raw ends tucked inwards.
3) Ensure adequate wetting between the gel and the glass
4) Concentrate on eliminating voids or air pockets.
Those are the primary steps that can be taken in the war against blisters.
This, however, will NOT give you a blister-proof hull.
ONLY a multi-coat application of a specialized epoxy based water barriercoat will guarantee no blisters - and even that can be scratched thru and fail.
I've got my list of mfrs whose boats I respect more than others, but blisters are not restricted to a given set of "brands" of boats.
Obviously, a full epoxy OuterLimits will be virtually immune to blisters, but ALL fiberglass and resin hulls possess the propensity to blister.
Last edited by mcollinstn; 02-29-2004 at 08:25 PM.
02-29-2004, 09:02 PM
#4
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
The epoxy OL hull uses 2-part epoxy instead of resin.
Epoxy possesses an innate strength whereas resin is more of a binding agent (to hold the strength-bearing fibers in a noncompressible matrix).
An epoxy hull can be laid up thinner and lighter while possessing a superior strength to thickness ratio (and strength to weight ratio) than a resin hull.
Drawback? Expense. Not only is epoxy significantly more expensive than the most expensive resins, but the handling and labor are far more involved.
Epoxy must be catalyzed immediately before use and has a limited working time before it kicks off (begins to set). Only small batches can be mixed at a time because of this. Any unexpected delay in the process will result in a batch being trashed cause once the onset of the chemical reaction has started, you can't apply it.
OL is not by any stretch the only company making epoxy hulls. But epoxy hulls will not be the norm anytime soon.
There's no way to say that they will never become popular, because nobody even considered a plastic boat in 1930.
Epoxy hulls are thinner, more translucent, and have been reported to be "louder" than a thicker, more standard glass and resin hull. These are issues that can be worked around, but may seem odd to the uneducated boat buyer.
As far as where the industry goes, all "standard" production methods were once considered to be the leading edge. I guess whatever proves to be the most cost effective, durable, and easy to produce method will become the norm.
Kevlar was the rage in the late 70's. It fell out of favor cause it presented adhesion problems when combined with "standard" production methods. Carbon Fiber was/is/will be an esoteric construction material. It is exotic and also has its benefits and oddities.
Epoxy and carbon fiber? Pure carbon fiber molded in an autoclave? Carbon nanotube construction?
Getting into an area of extreme expense and cutting edge military-grade technology.
At this stage, it would be unaffordable unless Warren Buffet wanted a showpiece, but if it makes it to the ranks of the affordable - I'm in.
Epoxy possesses an innate strength whereas resin is more of a binding agent (to hold the strength-bearing fibers in a noncompressible matrix).
An epoxy hull can be laid up thinner and lighter while possessing a superior strength to thickness ratio (and strength to weight ratio) than a resin hull.
Drawback? Expense. Not only is epoxy significantly more expensive than the most expensive resins, but the handling and labor are far more involved.
Epoxy must be catalyzed immediately before use and has a limited working time before it kicks off (begins to set). Only small batches can be mixed at a time because of this. Any unexpected delay in the process will result in a batch being trashed cause once the onset of the chemical reaction has started, you can't apply it.
OL is not by any stretch the only company making epoxy hulls. But epoxy hulls will not be the norm anytime soon.
There's no way to say that they will never become popular, because nobody even considered a plastic boat in 1930.
Epoxy hulls are thinner, more translucent, and have been reported to be "louder" than a thicker, more standard glass and resin hull. These are issues that can be worked around, but may seem odd to the uneducated boat buyer.
As far as where the industry goes, all "standard" production methods were once considered to be the leading edge. I guess whatever proves to be the most cost effective, durable, and easy to produce method will become the norm.
Kevlar was the rage in the late 70's. It fell out of favor cause it presented adhesion problems when combined with "standard" production methods. Carbon Fiber was/is/will be an esoteric construction material. It is exotic and also has its benefits and oddities.
Epoxy and carbon fiber? Pure carbon fiber molded in an autoclave? Carbon nanotube construction?
Getting into an area of extreme expense and cutting edge military-grade technology.
At this stage, it would be unaffordable unless Warren Buffet wanted a showpiece, but if it makes it to the ranks of the affordable - I'm in.
02-29-2004, 09:08 PM
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Boston Whaler and SeaRay use chopper guns to lay glass. I have seen it in Edgewater at the plant for Whaler (I also own a large Whaler) and have also heard from an employee of Searay.
02-29-2004, 09:46 PM
#6
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Bret
Have you seen them shoot chop into the structural part of the hulls? If so, then that is certainly news to me.
If you are talking about non structural portions, then I have no doubt that you are correct.
And on my '70 Whaler, the entire upper deck and inner liner appear to be chop (I have sanded thru the gel in many places during a lengthy resto), but the hull bottom on that little 13'er is woven fiber clear as day.
Have you seen them shoot chop into the structural part of the hulls? If so, then that is certainly news to me.
If you are talking about non structural portions, then I have no doubt that you are correct.
And on my '70 Whaler, the entire upper deck and inner liner appear to be chop (I have sanded thru the gel in many places during a lengthy resto), but the hull bottom on that little 13'er is woven fiber clear as day.
03-01-2004, 12:00 AM
#7
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Just my $.02.
'Chopper guns' are used in nearly all boats. Yes, all brands (for the most part) use chop in their boats. In a nut shell, the structural glass is bi-axial fabric (weaved in a 90 degree pattern). The amount of Bi-axial fabric used is the key variable here. The sport boats listed like Fountain, Formula and Cigarette use a lot of the bi-axial cloth. Generally lesser priced, lower quality boats ie: boats that are not meant for offshore (more forgiving with hull flex as it is not as much an issue at 40 mph as it is at 70, 80 or 90mph) use less biaxial fabric. Getting back to my point, Biaxial as a structural fabric is very good, the drawback is that it is rough and would show through a gelcoat (remember the thread on wavy hull sides?). So, chop strand is used to build up for a smooth surface for the gelcoat. Irionically it's people that say things like 'I wont buy a boat with chop mat in it' that wind up wondering why their hullsides are wavy. But hey, there's no chop in it.
Bringing this thread back onto topic. Blistering happens in all boats reguardless of materials and resins. Yes, a lot of the problem is from the materials used. If the mixture of resin is off, blistering is more prone to occuring. It's because of this that blistering is so varied across even a single line. All things like humidity, tempreture and even barometric pressure affect how prone any one boat is to blistering. While it may sound hopeless if you are trying to find the 'blister proof' boat, there is one thing to look for. Find the brand with the best quality control. I can not say who that is because I do not know, but track record would be a direction I would look.
'Chopper guns' are used in nearly all boats. Yes, all brands (for the most part) use chop in their boats. In a nut shell, the structural glass is bi-axial fabric (weaved in a 90 degree pattern). The amount of Bi-axial fabric used is the key variable here. The sport boats listed like Fountain, Formula and Cigarette use a lot of the bi-axial cloth. Generally lesser priced, lower quality boats ie: boats that are not meant for offshore (more forgiving with hull flex as it is not as much an issue at 40 mph as it is at 70, 80 or 90mph) use less biaxial fabric. Getting back to my point, Biaxial as a structural fabric is very good, the drawback is that it is rough and would show through a gelcoat (remember the thread on wavy hull sides?). So, chop strand is used to build up for a smooth surface for the gelcoat. Irionically it's people that say things like 'I wont buy a boat with chop mat in it' that wind up wondering why their hullsides are wavy. But hey, there's no chop in it.
Bringing this thread back onto topic. Blistering happens in all boats reguardless of materials and resins. Yes, a lot of the problem is from the materials used. If the mixture of resin is off, blistering is more prone to occuring. It's because of this that blistering is so varied across even a single line. All things like humidity, tempreture and even barometric pressure affect how prone any one boat is to blistering. While it may sound hopeless if you are trying to find the 'blister proof' boat, there is one thing to look for. Find the brand with the best quality control. I can not say who that is because I do not know, but track record would be a direction I would look.
Last edited by Formula78; 03-01-2004 at 12:03 AM.
03-01-2004, 06:29 AM
#8
Interesting thread!
I had a 280 Baja that I bought new in 1990. That boat sat in the water (fresh) for 12 seasons, May through October. (we don't get much bottom growth up here) and not a single blister. I also have a 1986 Sea Ray 22 Pachanga, same story, sits in the water the entire season (18yrs) not one blister. (and not bottom painted)
A friend of mine has a 1988 Sea Ray 27 Pachanga. This boat has also spent many seasons at the slip with no trouble at all...until last fall, he pulled it out and the ENTIRE bottom was blistered with thousands of pea sized bumps.
Why would a boat that has never had a problem, many years left in the water, now start to blister?
Kurt
I had a 280 Baja that I bought new in 1990. That boat sat in the water (fresh) for 12 seasons, May through October. (we don't get much bottom growth up here) and not a single blister. I also have a 1986 Sea Ray 22 Pachanga, same story, sits in the water the entire season (18yrs) not one blister. (and not bottom painted)
A friend of mine has a 1988 Sea Ray 27 Pachanga. This boat has also spent many seasons at the slip with no trouble at all...until last fall, he pulled it out and the ENTIRE bottom was blistered with thousands of pea sized bumps.
Why would a boat that has never had a problem, many years left in the water, now start to blister?
Kurt
03-01-2004, 08:28 AM
#9
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
virus, perhaps?
Maybe the '88 spent some time snuggled up to the wrong "dinghy"?
But as far as my experiences have gone, all the boats I've had or seen with blisters have sat in the water for several YEARS at a time, some coming out briefly for a scrub but only out for a couple of days then back in the drink. I personally have not experienced a blistered boat that got them over a single season. I'm SURE it happens a bunch but I've not experienced that myself.
A friend had a blistered Winner boat, that MAY have got them in a single season, but I can't recall. I do know it had them like the pox, though. He just pulled the boat out and let them dry and then sold it (they will "go away" visibly if you leave the boat out of the water, but they are still definitely "there").
Maybe the '88 spent some time snuggled up to the wrong "dinghy"?
But as far as my experiences have gone, all the boats I've had or seen with blisters have sat in the water for several YEARS at a time, some coming out briefly for a scrub but only out for a couple of days then back in the drink. I personally have not experienced a blistered boat that got them over a single season. I'm SURE it happens a bunch but I've not experienced that myself.
A friend had a blistered Winner boat, that MAY have got them in a single season, but I can't recall. I do know it had them like the pox, though. He just pulled the boat out and let them dry and then sold it (they will "go away" visibly if you leave the boat out of the water, but they are still definitely "there").
03-01-2004, 09:56 AM
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Very interesting reading
Some of you have done your home work.
I did have a boat blister in the first season. An Advantage I bougth new in 98. After a lengthy fight they said they would fix it if I shipped it to them. Nice.
I had it fixed and they came back 2 weeks later. I had it fixed again and traded it. Its too bad cause the boat looked new, if it were trailered or kept on a lift it would be fine. I'm forced to leave mine in the water. Although I never leave it for more than a couple of weeks. I wonder where the advantage ended up. Thanks for the education. JC
I did have a boat blister in the first season. An Advantage I bougth new in 98. After a lengthy fight they said they would fix it if I shipped it to them. Nice.
I had it fixed and they came back 2 weeks later. I had it fixed again and traded it. Its too bad cause the boat looked new, if it were trailered or kept on a lift it would be fine. I'm forced to leave mine in the water. Although I never leave it for more than a couple of weeks. I wonder where the advantage ended up. Thanks for the education. JC
