WakezoneINS

The purpose behind this thread is to provide you with information, but more importantly, get you to ask questions, read and understand your policy....

Many of you have secured umbrella insurance from your auto or home carrier to further protect yourself in the event of a horrible claim….smart thinking! Umbrella policies are such an inexpensive and great way to obtain high limits of insurance to protect your assets and future earnings from legal judgments.

While you made the first right move in obtaining the policy…. My question to you is: “Does your umbrella policy cover ALL of your underlying exposures? What about all aspects of boating? You may assume that it does or hope that it does, but hope is not a strategy and most certainly won’t get you a payout come claim time.

I encourage you to actually pull out your umbrella insurance policy and go to the pages behind the declaration page. This is were you are going to find all the terms of your policy including the exclusions. Most umbrella policies issued by home/auto carriers exclude any watercraft that has the CAPABILIITY of exceeding over 65mph. Some are as low as 55mph.

If the comments above leave you wondering if your umbrella policy covers your watercraft exposure... then I've done my job. Start to ask questions of your agent. If they say that your watercraft is INCLUDED, then ask them to show you in writing… where. This will save you come claim time.

DID YOU KNOW THAT MOST REGULAR UMBRELLA POLICIES EXCLUDE POKER RUNS FROM THEIR UMBRELLA POLICY, especially if the primary excludes them? Here is an excerpt from one policy:

While this can be left to interpretation (as will be pointed out below)...Some carriers consider the "Similar competition" their reference to a Poker Run. It is always a good idea before buying the umbrella to check on what the carrier defines a poker run under.

(z)Loss arising out of racing activities involving the use of autos, recreational vehicles or watercraft while they are being operated in, or practicing for, any prearranged or organized race, speed contest or other similar competition. However, this exclusion does not apply to sailboats.

Moral of the story…. Do your homework, ask questions and stay informed. It is your best defense as a policy holder.

Airpacker

Poker runs are NOT races or timed events . The exclusion you quoted seems pretty straight forward to me. No where does it state group outing, fun run, organized group cruise etc. If poker runs were timed from stop to stop and that time had any relation to the outcome of the poker hand, you would be correct but as it stands, a lawyer could stop the ins co's in their tracks on that one.

WakezoneINS

LOVE THE DISCUSSION THAT IS BEING OPENED UP!!!!


I beg to differ on this one...before I typed this up, I called into the underwriting department who wrote this policy and they said that they consider a Poker Run a race.... I'm just relaying information was trying to make a point... and my point on this is that policyholders ASK QUESTIONS before it gets to a lawyer.... why not be informed from the get go? I sure as heck wouldn't want it left to the chance that my lawyer can argue it after the fact.... but that's me.

In my opinion, It's the "similar competition" that will leave room for the carrier on this.... there are other carriers, like ACE for example that exclude poker runs because they consider a poker run a "race". ACE states the following in their policy under the exclusions section: " RACING: We will not pay for any loss that occurs while the insured vessel is being operated in any race or speed test." I know you're going to say "a poker run isn't a race" BUT the problem lies in the fact that the carrier considers a POKER RUN a race and that they do not specifically state that they cover poker runs..... in the eyes of ACE Poker Runs are not covered and they are all over the quotations when you purchase coverage stating that they do not provide coverage for them.... Lawyer is going to have a tough time arguing that one....again... just my take on it.

tomtbone1993

iTrader: (3)

So you are saying through "ACE" poker runs are consider a race, and the event of a incident would void coverage?

WakezoneINS

I believe it depends on which ACE policy you have as there are a couple out there. The majority of them do not have an endorsement that changes the policy terms to ALLOW for Poker runs (aka race events) and therefore would be excluded. I have been told this by ACE underwriters every time we obtain an ACE quotation for a performance client. In fact, it states that it is excluded on the quotation.

The only ACE policy where this may not apply is if it was issued by Total Dollar. I know that Total Dollar had their own program with ACE that had special endorsements and coverages that were different than what the rest could obtain... I can not speak for this policy.

Here is an example of a carrier that does allow for poker runs and their "wording", you'll notice a big difference:

EXCLUSIONS SECTION:
e. Any bodily injury or property damage arising out of the Insured Watercraft being operated in an organized race or speed contest. Contests such as poker runs, wherein the outcome is determined by factors OTHER THAN SPEED, are covered.

Notice the clarification on this one that reassures the policy holder that a poker run is covered?

Airpacker

Evey single poker run I have attended has had a drivers meeting before the event. Every single drivers meeting has had the promoter or their agent state clearly that " this is not a race".
A race by definition is a timed distance event competition between more than one entity. The winnier of such competion is the one who finnishes the course in the shortest amount of time.
No where in the description of a poker run is there any provision to better your chances of winning by being the fastest nor is winning based on which participant is the first to finnish the course or in the shortest amount of time. No where in the description of a Poker Run are the words "speed test" or "race" used therefore, by definition, it is NOT a race.
Any decent lawyer could have a judge shoot down any insurer who does not exclude SPECIFICALLY a poker run but says they consider a poker run a race and they exclude those.

It would not be very hard to get a judge to agree with the EXACT wording of their exclusions in which they do not specifically exclude poker runs and that the EXACT definitions of Poker Run and Race are not up for interpretation by an insurance company.

WakezoneINS

Guess what?!?!?! I AGREE WITH YOU THAT A POKER RUN ISN'T A RACE! and your point is well taken... but my point is... WHY WOULD YOU LEAVE IT UP TO CHANCE?

You don't have to take my advice... I'm just trying to offer knowledge and information to boaters.

I sure would hate to tell one of my clients, when on their quotation it clearly states... POKER RUNS excluded..., "don't worry... if you have a good lawyer... he can try to fight it... let's wait and see what happens".... can we say... horrible advice..... I would never advise my client of that...

Let me ask you this... if you get a quotation from me and in the terms of quote is specifically states that poker runs are excluded wouldn't that be setting the definition and understanding of the insurance company up front? Would you still have the same "outlook" with respects to the policy wording then?

speedreeder

WAKEZONE, If you had an umbrella, would it take over for an under insured person. (IE) If I had 50,000 medical, Would an umbrella cover the remainder of the amount, Say something went on and the umbrella would cover after the regular policy. Let me try to say it clearly. I have a basic auto policy....25,000 medical/body...etc. If I were to be sued would an umbrella cover the rest of the amount. Point being the umbrella might be a little cheaper than getting a maxed out policy, And the umbrella would also cover the house, Car and etc....I hope you can understand where I am coming from or going with this point?! Thanks, Rob

WakezoneINS

I completely understand what you are asking. To answer your question, most insurance carriers set "minimum underlying limits" that you have to have on your primary auto policy before you can buy an umbrella. The umbrella insurance carrier has these stipulations for all types of underlying coverage or policies. So you would to likely bring your existing 25/50 policy up to a minimum 100/300 (or with some 250/500), then you can buy a $1M or higher umbrella.

here is an example of the guidelines that are given:

Watercraft
Minimum underlying limit: $300,000 if Personal, $500,000 if Business.
Florida exception: $500,000 if Personal or Business.
Texas exception: $500,000 if Personal.

No Charge
We will include without charge if under 27 feet in overall length and either one of the following:


1. without motor
2. rented inboard or inboard/outdrive of 50 horsepower or less
3. owned of 25 horsepower or less,
4. owned or rented sailboats.
All other eligible watercraft are designated as follows:
Class A - Utility Boat
Maximum speed 45 MPH: Under 27 Feet. Full range of outboard, inboard/outboard or inboard.

Class B - Standard
Maximum speed 60 MPH: Under 42 feet. A more specialized class of boat with better than average performance.

Class D - Yacht/Cruiser, Sailboat, Houseboat
Maximum speed 45 MPH: 27 feet and over, but under 42 feet. The conventional higher valued segment of the non-trailerable boat/yacht market.


Hope this answers your question. You'd be surprised how inexpensive it may be for you to increase your 25/50 to 100/300.

Here's Johnny

Stacey......as you know I have my insurance through you.....I am still activly looking for an umbrella......my question is do I have to have all of my insurance with the same carrier or will your umbrella pick up where geico left off. I have my auto with geico and my home owners with another company.....is it possible for the umbrella to just pick up where the others leave off.........................John.....