496 475HP in Factory?
08-26-2003, 08:09 PM
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496 475HP in Factory?
If they go that rout what will SVL,SV, and super cat lite run next year for motors? You have to trust the powers to be but we just bought all new stuff and dialed it in. Merc. has a proven motor for us in the 525 and I'm not sure I want to change. I would hate to have to run P4. What would the incentive be for us to change? I have talked to both sides today APBA and Merc. Racing and someone is not telling all the facts. Both sides have great points and hope we can share some with you all at the Factory meeting in Fort L. that Loooo Annnn is putting together. Remember nothing has been decided yet by APBA yet these are just ideas.
MD
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08-27-2003, 07:21 AM
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Here's the deal...
Had a long talk with Steve Miklos yesterday. There is a two part problem: what to do for the rest of this season and what to do about next year.
Dilemma One:
For this season the Nationals are pretty much decided but the racing is non-competitive above 3rd place. Do you slow the front runners who have spent a lot of time and money doing the right thing to be running one and two? Or do you try to improve 3-9 so they can run with the big dogs (and Winnebegos)? Or do you accept that the racing will be for third place and beyond for this season, including the Worlds? There are at least two teams considering upgrading to 525s before the Worlds. One of those teams will not drive over 4000 miles to race for third place. I think it will be great to have four 29' Warlocks with HP500EFIs at 4650# racing each other at the Worlds but we will be racing for third. It will be like having F-1A and F-1B class. The issues are money, fairness, and handling.
Dilemma Two:
What about next year? Mercury "black"/Stewart Stevenson are considering putting some big money into our sport if we use some version of the 496. GMC Vortec has already done that the past couple of years and apparantly are satisfied with the classes they participate in now (they sell trucks not marine equipment). This sport needs money, more than entry fees can provide, to be credible in the racing community (TV, sponsors, fan appeal, etc.). I just want to compete on a level playing field; one engine/outdrive combination for all boats. I would have gone to 525 this year except for the huge cost. Our numbers in F-1 are down partly because of that cost and our competition is down because of the engine variants.
The 496 package offers a lot. Money from sponsors to help us and our sport, lower cost to encourage more participation, and more even competition. Apparantly they can build a 480 hp variant that will give similiar performance to the HP500EFI at less cost. Sounds like a winning combination.
We need more information via a meeting for F1/F2 in Ft. Lauderdale and maybe an early decision so teams don't needlessly upgrade to 525 for the Worlds. Despite what this may sound like, I haven't consumed the KoolAid. Just reporting what I have heard to date. I think Steve and APBA are trying to do the right thing by us and our sport. Your input is encouraged.
Allen
Had a long talk with Steve Miklos yesterday. There is a two part problem: what to do for the rest of this season and what to do about next year.
Dilemma One:
For this season the Nationals are pretty much decided but the racing is non-competitive above 3rd place. Do you slow the front runners who have spent a lot of time and money doing the right thing to be running one and two? Or do you try to improve 3-9 so they can run with the big dogs (and Winnebegos)? Or do you accept that the racing will be for third place and beyond for this season, including the Worlds? There are at least two teams considering upgrading to 525s before the Worlds. One of those teams will not drive over 4000 miles to race for third place. I think it will be great to have four 29' Warlocks with HP500EFIs at 4650# racing each other at the Worlds but we will be racing for third. It will be like having F-1A and F-1B class. The issues are money, fairness, and handling.
Dilemma Two:
What about next year? Mercury "black"/Stewart Stevenson are considering putting some big money into our sport if we use some version of the 496. GMC Vortec has already done that the past couple of years and apparantly are satisfied with the classes they participate in now (they sell trucks not marine equipment). This sport needs money, more than entry fees can provide, to be credible in the racing community (TV, sponsors, fan appeal, etc.). I just want to compete on a level playing field; one engine/outdrive combination for all boats. I would have gone to 525 this year except for the huge cost. Our numbers in F-1 are down partly because of that cost and our competition is down because of the engine variants.
The 496 package offers a lot. Money from sponsors to help us and our sport, lower cost to encourage more participation, and more even competition. Apparantly they can build a 480 hp variant that will give similiar performance to the HP500EFI at less cost. Sounds like a winning combination.
We need more information via a meeting for F1/F2 in Ft. Lauderdale and maybe an early decision so teams don't needlessly upgrade to 525 for the Worlds. Despite what this may sound like, I haven't consumed the KoolAid. Just reporting what I have heard to date. I think Steve and APBA are trying to do the right thing by us and our sport. Your input is encouraged.
Allen
08-27-2003, 08:55 AM
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I have ask the 496 package be beefed up to match the 500 EFI. This protects the investment of the majority who have 500 efi's and gives a less expensive upgrade path to those wishing to join the factory classes and creates an opportunity to switch from the 500 efi if you want to take advantage of the support from S&S.
The delima now is how to take care of the three teams that spent the money to upgrade to the 525's. It's fairly clear the fleet is not coming up to the 525 level. Any thoughts?
The delima now is how to take care of the three teams that spent the money to upgrade to the 525's. It's fairly clear the fleet is not coming up to the 525 level. Any thoughts?
08-27-2003, 07:27 PM
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Write the checks to me and Mark! I want to be on a fair playing field with all the F1 teams. Give Mark and myself fresh 500 EFI Motors for the rest of the season to use. I would have to run a Imco shorty lower because I am not willing to spend the money to re fiberglass and re rig the rest! Everyone had the choice to run a 525 at the start of the season and most said they didn't see any advantage to doing it after what there crew chiefs had told them. Does that make me a bad person for risking my money on something that was not going to be any better? It could have gone the other way and we would be sucking wind for the rest of the season. It was all about choices at the beginning of the year and we went Merc. 525. You all had the same choice and opted to stay with what you had!
MD
MD
08-27-2003, 07:31 PM
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Allen,
I agree with closer racing, but from what I hear last year at the Worlds it was Mark and Randy with a huge distance to 3rd and they all ran the 500 EFI, I ran the snot out of my Fountain for 2 years and was finishing and average of 5th place and we were always 3+ minutes behind, I think Mark is right if we put the 500efi back in I don't think its going to slow us up, 350lbs. is alot of wieght to add. Personally I don't care if they add 800lbs to our boat, I just want to go out and race, as long as I know we did everything we could and ran as hard as we could I don't care if we come in last. If its going to be this year lets do it know so we can test with it and not right before the worlds.
Gino
I agree with closer racing, but from what I hear last year at the Worlds it was Mark and Randy with a huge distance to 3rd and they all ran the 500 EFI, I ran the snot out of my Fountain for 2 years and was finishing and average of 5th place and we were always 3+ minutes behind, I think Mark is right if we put the 500efi back in I don't think its going to slow us up, 350lbs. is alot of wieght to add. Personally I don't care if they add 800lbs to our boat, I just want to go out and race, as long as I know we did everything we could and ran as hard as we could I don't care if we come in last. If its going to be this year lets do it know so we can test with it and not right before the worlds.
Gino
08-27-2003, 08:12 PM
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Allen,
If Steve and LLC are tring to do the right thing,why did they let it get to the point it is at now.It is crazy having a class with 4 different engine packages,and numerous outdrive setups. What did they think was going to happen? How can you run a sealed engine with 505-515 Hp against a package with 560-575 HP and expect anything to happen but what happen. The problem started and the reason it happen was money motivated.The only way LLC could slide the HP3 in was to allow the 525 package. Common scence could of told you what was going to happen,with that big a diifference in HP you have two different classes. That isn't the way F1 was designed,the concept work perfect for years. It wasn't broken and they shouldnt of done what they did. Again only my two scence but from people I've spoke to in the industry GMC bought they're way into LLC and the rest is history.The one simply question I've asked is why did LLC introduce more engine packages into a class that was designed to be regulated and to be run as a factory class. There was even talk of tring to slow the class do last year and instead the introduce a new package with 570 HP. I dont think you have to be a rocket scientist to figure it out. Simply question what where they thinging and how was it going to better the class (no answer) or at least not one that anyone wants to talk about. Question two how was this going to effect the racers? It looks to me that the racers are all on the short end of the stick. Doesnt look to me that alot of thought went into how this would effect the teams and they're wallets. Seams like it is always out of the racers wallets and in someone elses?
Frank
Koolhand
If Steve and LLC are tring to do the right thing,why did they let it get to the point it is at now.It is crazy having a class with 4 different engine packages,and numerous outdrive setups. What did they think was going to happen? How can you run a sealed engine with 505-515 Hp against a package with 560-575 HP and expect anything to happen but what happen. The problem started and the reason it happen was money motivated.The only way LLC could slide the HP3 in was to allow the 525 package. Common scence could of told you what was going to happen,with that big a diifference in HP you have two different classes. That isn't the way F1 was designed,the concept work perfect for years. It wasn't broken and they shouldnt of done what they did. Again only my two scence but from people I've spoke to in the industry GMC bought they're way into LLC and the rest is history.The one simply question I've asked is why did LLC introduce more engine packages into a class that was designed to be regulated and to be run as a factory class. There was even talk of tring to slow the class do last year and instead the introduce a new package with 570 HP. I dont think you have to be a rocket scientist to figure it out. Simply question what where they thinging and how was it going to better the class (no answer) or at least not one that anyone wants to talk about. Question two how was this going to effect the racers? It looks to me that the racers are all on the short end of the stick. Doesnt look to me that alot of thought went into how this would effect the teams and they're wallets. Seams like it is always out of the racers wallets and in someone elses?
Frank
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08-27-2003, 08:35 PM
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I have two cents to add to this topic.
1. I believe that when the rule book is written, it should be in stone for three years. A change that's announced in 2003 can only go into effect in 2006.
2. If racers feel they don't have a chance in hell of winning, they won't be racing for long.
3. Miklos and Alwiess think about APBA 24 hrs a day. We all know there are many variables to this deal and I'm sure they will make the best decision possible for the long term viability of the class and the sport.
4. Personally, I would add weight to the faster boats to slow them down.
Parity is about putting on a show for the camera and fans so that APBA can make a show that someone is willing to pay to watch or sponsor. The only problem is, does this type of thinking reduce technological advancement? I mean why try if you get penalized for winning. On the other hand, the small budget teams can remain competitive in an older boat.
Eany Meany Miney Moe......
1. I believe that when the rule book is written, it should be in stone for three years. A change that's announced in 2003 can only go into effect in 2006.
2. If racers feel they don't have a chance in hell of winning, they won't be racing for long.
3. Miklos and Alwiess think about APBA 24 hrs a day. We all know there are many variables to this deal and I'm sure they will make the best decision possible for the long term viability of the class and the sport.
4. Personally, I would add weight to the faster boats to slow them down.
Parity is about putting on a show for the camera and fans so that APBA can make a show that someone is willing to pay to watch or sponsor. The only problem is, does this type of thinking reduce technological advancement? I mean why try if you get penalized for winning. On the other hand, the small budget teams can remain competitive in an older boat.
Eany Meany Miney Moe......
