Money Pit or Smart Buy for a New Guy ?

[robscarab]

Hi to all you lucky ******** !

I am hoping to join your ranks as an offshore speedmeister...but I could use a little help ! I was really happy to see the newbies here like me are treated with so much patience and respect ! I hope to become a regular contibutor in the years to come.

I have just given a dealer a verbal commitment to purchase a 1986 Panther for 15,000 USD. It is 800 miles away and I have only seen pictures. It has twin BBC's but had the drives stolen. I assumed they were Bravos but just found out they are Alphas ! I had no idea alpha drives would handle Big Block torque but he has found some freshly rebuilt Alphas that will come with the purchase. The engines apparantly have 150hrs on them and were running very well. He does not know about mods on them but they appear to have Demon carbs and aluminum intakes in the pictures. I plan on pulling them and inspecting them over the winter. At the least I will be refurbishing the heads and replacing the valvetrain. The hull is apparantly in great shape as are the stringers according to the dealer. The interior looks worn and dirty but the Captain's console looks visually pretty good. It comes with a triple axle trailer with new tires. I was told it was a freshwater only boat.

I guess my questions are , does this sound like a fair deal based on the limited info I have described here or is it overpriced ? Is an Alpha drive capable of handling 330 + horsepower ? Does anyone have a similar Panther that can give me some realistic speed expectations. I would like to build the existing motors to around 400hp but may be limited if you folks think the Alphas are too weak.

I have been a boat guy all my life but until now have left the performance boats to the Thousand Islands Millionaires ! I bought new only until last year when I purchased a 94 28 Wellcraft Excel family cruiser. I built a 400hp stroker smallblock for the Volvo SX drive and had a great summer on lake Ontario with no problems. I hope I am not biting off more than I can chew with this unit but any advise will be GREATLY appreciated !
Thank-you Kindly and I am looking forward to seeing more than just your transoms next summer !

Rob in Eastern Lake Ontario region

[jackhammer]

have a specialist check for rot before you make that 800 mile trip. I just replaced all the wood in my "killer deal". It aint no fun

[CMG]

Rob, I would not buy a big heavy boat with Alphas - period! That boat should have had TRS drives back then, can't imagine why only the Alphas to begin with. Like JH said, old boats that sound like killer deals usually do the killing on your wallet. As far as building the motors, which would absolutely require the conversion to B1 or TRS = transom work, its probably not going to touch 75mph. I'd keep looking but if you have a link to the brokers web site or post pictures of the boat (you'll have to pay for membership- its worth every penny) and don't be surprised if someone knows the boat and you'll get details.

oh ya, the Alphas weren't stolen, they were either destroyed the first time the boat caught some air or they jumped off the transom and ran away!
Good luck,

[SLOWOUTBOARD]

check out my buddies scarab.nice older boat.he also has a 38 http://www.offshoreonly.com/esvon/page-10772.html

[robscarab]

Thanks Guys !

You confirmed my thoughts about Alphas mounted on a performance boat of this size. I was told by the seller that in the 80's it was not unusual to find alphas mounted on these boats. Has anyone ever heard of a OEM equipped Panther with BBC's and alpha drives ?

There is no question that if I buy this unit than I will be upgrading the drives but I have some questions.

If it is an alpha set-up than do I have to recut the transom to house a B1 or TRS ?

Does a B1 have the same upper as a TRS ?

Is a TRS a more robust set-up than a B1 and what speed advantage does it provide ?

Is the Panther a good performance hull for durability and speed ?

Based on the good info from you guys I am now going to renegotiate this deal minus the rebuilt drives and see what the price is with just the engines and transom mounts that already exist. I really like the 79 in New York but I live in Western Canada which is 3000 miles from there. The Panther is located in Kelowna B.C. which is 400 miles one way. I am going there next week anyway with my three little boys for a family vacation and a business meeting with some B.C. clients . The Broker in Kelowna is actually a used car dealer whom purchases boats as well as cars for resale into the Canadian Market. My plan is to refurbish this unit over the winter months in my shop and then haul it down to my summer place near Kingston Ont. next Spring. I purchased a cruiser (and tow vehicle) from him last year and it was a good buy. He was completely honest with me, and my kids and I had a great time restoring the last boat we got from him. This Panther was probably aquired through an auction house as a repo.

I have purchased a VIP membership here as suggested, and will try and post some pictures of the boat this evening.

I am really hoping that this boat can be the first performance boat I buy, but will stick to the advice I recieve from those that have" been there done that" (and are still paying for it) !

To sum up this long winded post my main questions are:

- Would the alphas survive some medium speed family cruising for the remaider of this season or is it just wishfull thinking ?

-How much cabbage to convert to a more suitable drive ?

- What should I look for while inspecting the hull and existing rigging when I inspect this boat ? I was told that it has been assessed by a marine expert and checks out excellent...

Thanks very much for your help and I will return the favour by posting updates and photos as we refurbish our first offshore performance boat.

Rob

[CMG]

Rob, transom work for either drive answer is yes. B1 same upper as a TRS? - no. Your question Bravo verses TRS has been debated a zillion times here in last few years, I say like most choose B1 ( remember TRS needs a trans also). Speed diff? I doubt. Panther good performance boat? Its a heavy 30ft boat so it'll do a good job crushing waves but I wouldn't spend a lot trying for speed(I had a Formula 311, similar story) Will Alphas hold up for a season? yes going very slow. Hammering the sticks out of the hole would almost destoy them though. No idea on the cost of conversion, I'd guess $5k with used drives. I'll assume the person that told you the boat was excellent per a "marine expert" has a vested interest in the sale - its hard to imagine an 86 without something notably wrong.

Now my qualifications - I am a salesman not a mechanic, just a guy that breaks everything I own so I'm experienced (just wait til you see the bill to rebuild a blown B1 ) sold my 311 last year and always looking for a good deal and my gut feeling would be to pass on a boat that old that needs undetermined amount of $ to make the way you want. Slowoutboard's friends boat is a good indicator (slowoutboard its a 30 not a 38! ) of whats out there for the $. Call his buddy and offer him 10k per a good survey (do not buy an old boat without one!!!), the distance would no longer be a hindrance, you could have delivered.

Consider what you'd spend on this prospective boat + transom glass work + cost of Bravos (not cheap!) = a lot more than you'd ever get back for it the next day. Pass on it unless less than 10k.

Just remember opinions, asses and elbows - we all have em!

Good boat hunting...

[robscarab]

Here are some pics of the Panther... if this works...

[robscarab]

Some more....does this boat look familiar to anyone ? It looks like it says "Denver Harbour H****ton Texas " ? I thought it said Houston at first but it looks like too many letters ? I was also told she was a fresh water boat...Hmmm.....

[robscarab]

Thanks for the advice CMG,

I certainly appreciate and agree with you on all your comments now that you all so kindly educated me on the Alphas' unsuitability for the weight of this boat. I will be leaving tomorrow for our vacation and we should be at the boat on Tues. I will have a close look and if it looks to be sound of structure to my untrained eyes ,I will hire a local surveyor to assess the condition of the hull, stringers and rigging . I think he will sell it for under 10,000 without the drives and If that is the case I will try and get a firm price for rebuilt Bravo's and all the parts required for an Alpha/Bravo swap. Does anyone know of a posting here or resource for instructions on retrofitting the transom for a Bravo drive install ? As far as my abilities ,I am an engineer whom designs and manufactures 500+hp deisel tree mulchers and I rebuild muscle cars for a hobby. Not exactly a marine mechanic but I know my limitations. When it comes time to tackle a new project I won't attempt it until I am certain I have the info required to sucessfully finish the job. Websites such as Offshore Only are a fantastic resource for DIY guys like me since half the fun for us is in the" journey from the dealers lot to the lake". I just don't want to start this trip without any gas in the tank !

Thanks,
Rob

[puder]

DO NOT BUY A 454/Alpha combination just not worth the hassle it migh thold up it might not. You'll have to baby it and it will always be a concern at your current power level, don;t even think about upgrades.