"as is"
 

If the seller intentionally deceives the buyer by hiding structural damage does the term "as is" apply? Without disclosure, when seller puts a new floor over rotted stringers and glasses over a rotted transom then advertises the boat "as is" is there some level of recourse? New floor over rotted stringers and glassed over rotted transom to make the boat seem well kept seems a bit extreme and appears outside of whats reasonably detected and far outside of "as is."

Unless there was outright fraud on his part, you're S.O.L.
Example: You: "Is the transom rotted?" Him: "No, it is not," and he knows it is. The problem is that you HAVE to prove he knew. Good luck with that.

"As is" denotes that the seller is selling, and the buyer is buying an item in whatever condition it presently exists, and that the buyer is accepting the item "with all faults", whether or not immediately apparent.

that's not strictly true. in some states there is an obligation to disclose known defects. and due dilligence is always the answer. if you are buying you never take anyone's word for anything. you ask questions and if you get assurances then you commit those to writing as part of the sales contract. that way proving that he " knew" is simple. if you discover he covered a defect yet in writing denied the defect then you win.

but really... when you see all sorts of new structural stuff, aren't you moved to ask " gee... why did he do all this ?" and then ask the right questions and do the right inspections ?

the ultimate responsibility is yours to be smart and careful. the courts can only protect you if you are willfully decieved ... not if you are dumb or negligent.

Thank you for your input and you raise interesting points. I printed photos of the boat in his shop before I made the trade in what appears to be finishing stages of the floor and rebuilt engine / drive. The pics were posted on the site where the boat was for sale. The web page has since been deleted so I cant post a link. I suppose in all probability the time and cumulative cost of out of state legal process outweighs my loss. This is the first time I did not catch the "cover up," I've been faced with it but have always seen it before the buy or trade.

As is in good running&structial condition!?:confused:

If you are talking a dealer you might have a case. If you search the internet, courts are ruling against AS IS quite often, even in boat cases. AS IS does not cover somebody totally specially a dealer. If somebody knew about something and did not disclose it you might have case. If you could prove the work was done recently to cover something up you might be good. It would be harder for you to go after a private sale due to the fact cash may have been used and the court is not going to see a private seller as professional on boats like they would a dealer or marina. But if at the sametime they made a repair and to the best of their knowledge that repaired it then they might be clean and clear, but they should have disclosed it.

Fact of the matter is your best bet is to go back to the seller and be like look heres the deal and see if a gentlemens agreement can be had. But the big thing is if you go to litigation it is going to cost you. I asked a lawyer once to rep me in small claims for something he wanted 2500 for it. So if you take a transom that is probably 5k to fix and lose the case your out 2500 bucks. It all depends on what you spent on the boat and what the fix will cost. Cause you could win the case and get 5k but still pay lawyers fees, the judge may not grant you those, he could grant you half thus you would break even. But you could do small claims your self only cost 100 bucks or so. Also try the BBB or your states attorney general, you can always file a complaint against a business with those two it may not get you anywhere, but it may apply the pressure you need.

You hired a licensed surveyor to inspect the boat, right?
Would have been money well spent.

After rebuilding a bowrider that had a "soft spot" in the floor I can say if the floor is rotted in any area. Then the stringers and transom have also very likely been compromised by water. I'd never buy a "floor only" replaced boat without pulling the transom plug out, or at minumum the transom lifting eyes for a self inspection.

If he replaced just the floor due to rotting he just was making a quick cosmetic fix to ditch it IMO.

My thoughts exactly. He knew it. Probably even stressed the 'as-is' clause.

It was a private party and we made an even trade. In my error I did not hire a pro to inspect the boat and largely relied on the pics he had on the site and my visual inspection. In my error I truly did not consider that someone would be so daft as to lay anything at all over dry rot. Small claims court seems to be the cost effective choice if at all possible due to the "as is" on the bill of sale. Trade was done just outside of Orlando so tonight I'm looking at what the law says about this in Florida.

I suppose the baseline questions are; can a person sell or a trade a boat that has known dry rot that the seller has intentionally coverd up without disclosing the underlying issue. There is no question whether or not he knew of the dry rot as the new wood and glass was applied directly over the rot. It was only after I got home and happened to be looking for drain plugs under the engine while the boat was covered that the dry rot smell was unmistakable. I drilled a hole to confirm then made a cut out to really find the extent dry rot. The secondary question is; What is a reasonable and customary extent of inspection by the buyer to accept "as is?" Was I obligated to drill into floor and transom to confirm no dry rot under the new glass or obligated to hire a pro to eval underlying stringers. Surely the law cannot allow for and expectation of deceit.

Trying to "prove" deceit will be your biggest hurdle.

A reasonable and customary extent of inspection.... would be to fully inspect to your satisfaction. It differs from person to person and from boat to boat.

I know you've heard it here before, but a simple survey with moisture test would have easily found the problem. Dry rot will still contain moisture enough to detect.

Sorry for the bad luck.

Of course there is a question.

Previous owner did it.

He knew about it but paid someone to fix it. That shop must have ripped him off.

He knew about it but the shop told him it was no big deal.

He did fix the stringers, something must have gone wrong again.

The possibilities are endless.

Sorry about the deal but I don't see where you have a case.

i have been on both sides of legal actions just like this many times over the years.....
it has been my experience that if the sale was between two private parties and there is no warranty expressed in writing...then there is virtually no chance in successfully taking action against the selling party.

if it had been a dealer sale then you may have a shot depending on the "lemon laws" of the state of sale. i would reccomend you contact the States Attorney in the state where the sale occured to find the proper course of action.

good luck to you.....

like others have said pvt sale your going to have big issues trying to Prove it, and most likely will spend more than the fix to do it. Best bet is to call him up and man to man ask for some sort of settlement. Dont know if you have done this yet. I have bought things before and immediately found something and called the guy and he was willing to fix somethings.

But the court is going to ask was there an expressed warranty you will say(im talking pvt sale here because dealers still have an obligation warranty or not) no. Then they will ask if you got an inspection you will say yes. They will probably say you had all the tools and time to inspect to your satisfaction, then at that point when you drove away it was yours.

To be honest with you if you repair the brakes on your truck before you sell it or repaint a door due a dent, would or should disclose it if the fix in your honest mind made it look and function to factory specs. His best defesnse in the world would be to be silent. He doesnt have to say anything in court. It would be all on you. Your best bet is to get an estimate to fix it, call him up and get whatever you can out of him. Another thing the court will look at, was the repair done, YES. Well maybe its not to your standards or others here, but it still was minimal fix that does happen.

If its a private sale your really trying to piss up a rope, how do you know it wasnt fixed right then broke again against his knowledge. Like others have said the possibilites are endless.

When you buy something "as is", don't you understand what "as is" actually means? I understand the seller might have hidden things but in an as is sale isn't that the buyers responsibility to check it out first. Every boat or car I buy from a private seller I check out, if I get screwed I blame myself.

After a bit of research its interesting to note the general acceptance that "as is" between private parties allows expectation that the seller is lying somewhere along the line of the sale. The lie becomes negated by simply adding "as is" somewhere in the writing. The buyer has the responsibility to verify that the product claims made by the seller are indeed true. It appears if the buyer does not discover the deceit, then the private seller has no responsibility to honor his original advertisement.

It does not allow expectation that he is lying. The more I get a feel for this I dont think the guy was lying he either knew about it and got it fixed to what he thought was right , or didnt know at all. AS IS doesnt imply hes lying, it implies AS IS, which means no guarentees, warranties, you check it out buy it or dont buy it.

Everything I sell to people I make a hand written contract with the dollar amount, item, date, and signaturs and it states AS IS. I let the people know as much as I know about the item for sale, I cant vouch for who I bought it from or its history. With an AS IS pvt they can not come back on you, its upon the buyer to do what he needs to do.

I think there has been plenty of info given and options. But to keep debating the fact that he lied or didnt lie is a waste of time.

The Legal Definition:

"The term 'as is' gives notice to buyers that they are taking a risk on the quality of the goods. The buyer is free to inspect the goods before purchase; but if any hidden defects are discovered after purchase, the buyer has no recourse against the seller. Any implied or express warranties that usually accompany goods for sale are excluded in an 'as is' sale."
-West's Encyclopedia of American Law, edition 2, 2008

He had to know there was rot, I can't ask him for sure though as his numbers have changed. I'll try to post a pic or two of the rot tomorrow, I truly never thought anyone would put a new floor over rot, but whats done is done. I cut out the entire floor today and yes it was new glass over new wood over entirely bad stringers. He even used 1x8 painted pine to build up a portion of a stringer that crumbled. After trying several saws, blades, and every attachment that sonicrafter makes... I found that an inexpensive 3-3/8 toe kick saw from harbor freight with blade #95620 will cut fiberglass faster than anything else I found. I'm gonna try some nida-bond that I found on youtube to fill new stringers/ transom. It looks solid as a rock and will never rot. I gotta say we had fun dismantling the boat... I got this for my oldest son and at least after we're finished there will be no question as to whats been done.

And a surveyor would have had a moisture meter. Amazing little tool. I own one.

This is the same mindset that I've always accepted to myself when I see that disclaimer in an ad of anything for sale.
The sad part is this usually scares me because I always seem to feel that there may be something more to it than it than it may be. I'm not implying that I felt they were lying, but I felt uneasy because of the disclosure.
I've purchased and sold many many toys over the years and have never placed this in any of my ads when selling.

See ya,
Kelly

the operative term in that definition is " hidden" . that is defined elsewhere as " unknown" . if the seller is aware of the defect and is obligated to disclose and fails to,, then he breaks the law. if he is in a state that does not require him to disclose but has knowledge and denies it then that is a willful fraud and is not covered by the " as is" covenant. once he is aware of the defect all he can hope is that you don't ask. if he isn't obligated to disclose in the state the sale takes place and you don't ask then you are on your own.

The key is proof. Short of a confession, seller wins you have no proof

of course... but you ask the question, he says " no" and you write in the bill of sale... " seller represents the boat free of rot" if he signs... great if he won't, that tells you everything you need to know. as i said earlier, just because the law is there to protect you, doesn't mean you can be stupid.

no but the burden of proof is always on the plaintiff or prosecution. So you in fact can be stupid all day long, the other guy has to prove something.

I would advise you read this LOOOONG thread to get an idea of how much and how little "as is" can protect you. Happened in Tennessee, too.

http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=207127