Bravo Drive Breakage on BT
 

We are looking to get a new BT in the next year, should the economy get a bit better. I have been working with the builder and can not wait until the day we can move forward.

In speaking with several BT owners in the past, I have a huge concern that the Bravo drive is just too weak to handle such a heavy boat. We are looking at 500EFIs (twins) or higher for engines.

What have you guys had for drive breakage (if any) on your BTs? Please share your set-up (HP and drives) so I can better understand the issue.

Also, I know last year that BT build a with B-Max's and IMCO SC drives... anyone here have this set-up? If so, how has it worked out.

Thanks for your input.

The boat we bought was originally built with 500's and Bravos. The owner upgraded the horsepower and was continually tearing up the drives. The boat was sent to Dollar Offshore to be refitted with #3 drives and from what we have been told there should be no problems as long as they were taken care of.
We don't have first hand experience with this setup but are anxious to try it out if it ever gets warm again.
The down side of this is weight. with the # 3 drives also comes the tramsmissions and all the added weight of the additional hardware plus the beefer drives. Oh well just add more power to move it RIGHT!!!!
From what all we have been told the set-up we have is supposed to what the boat needed. Have been told 88-92mph but will have to wait and see.

Bill & Patti

We're running triple 700's with XR drives and have app. 150 hours on the drives with no problems. We're using 5 blade hydromotives with 1.36 gears. We take it REAL EZ getting on plane and don't hammer it in the rough stuff. Prior to adding the blowers we had 500 EFI's with the Bravo 1s and about 240 hours with no problems either.

If I were to order new, although we've had no problems with our XR's, I'd go with B Max drives.

Steve

Thanks for some early feedback.

43Thunder... what horsepower are you running to hit the estimated speeds you outlined? Is this a twin or triple set-up? What year is the boat? Stepped version?

Steve... I understand you do a lot of the demo rides for BT at the Miami show. What are they sending down this year? Unfortunately, I will not be able to attend Miami, but will hit the LA show (no BT here). Have you heard anything from the factory on the IMCO or the B-Max standing up? Tom R. and Bob J. were telling me that both the IMCO and B-Max held up behind some KE675's (twin and triple set-up). Why would you go with the B-Max if you were to order new?

Thanks again.

Hi Boomer,

I'm not certain which boat they'll send to Miami this year. More than likely a 46', extended cockpit with twin 525 EFI's. She makes a good demo boat as the cabin is the same throughout their Cruiser model range, but the cockpit fits more people in the extended version. Speed with 525's is in the 73-75 MPH range.

As to why I'd order B Max next go around: First the guy who makes them is a Friend of mine, Dean Claussen. Second the gears and shafts in the B Max are almost equivalent to #6 internals, yet don't require an external transmission. The IMCO SC Extreme is a good drive as well, I just know Dean and like doing business with Friends.

Jasman. The PSI drive is a fine system. Harry Schoell is an acquaintance from the late 60's who I used to compete against in closed course racing. He's a true genius in both design and application. Because a PSI system has yet to be installed on a Black Thunder, we would be somewhat guessing on X dimension etc. which would require some trial and error. I'd love the experimentation, but my better half would remove parts of me I wouldn't like removed if I spent anymore time than I already do messing with my boats :eek:

Take care,
Steve

43Thunder... what horsepower are you running to hit the estimated speeds you outlined? Is this a twin or triple set-up? What year is the boat? Stepped version?


The boat is a 1998 stepped version with twin Cobra 750's

Jassman...

The only BT with surface drives that I know of is the Turbinator (turbine power). I am not sure who rigged the boat or which surface drives are used.

I'm running IMCO extreme SC's, 1.36 gears, behind 700 Chiefs. Too early to tell on durability as it's a new boat. I like the IMCO over the B-Max because of the $$$ and the ease of repair.

Thanks Steve, and Boomer. I was just curious about the surface drives. I know what you mean on guessing on x-dim. I went through that with my 37Avh and The Imco extreme s/c, I went 2" higher, threw a 1" spacer, added Herings, and 20 hrs later have it finally dialed in perfect. Harry, to me is a genius, the bottom that is under the 37 is pure magic, what a great rough water ride, and soft re-entry. My next boat, 4300-Nor-tech, 46 Black Thunder or the new 44 A.T. , I will probably go with a Pulse drives.. Harry is working on the first Pulse drive on the 37AVH with Pat, should be ready late spring early summer. Steve, I will stop by the B.T. booth at the Miami show, I'd like to meet you, Take care guys. Jeff:D

Hi Jeff,

The BT demo boat will be located at Sundays on Key Biscayne this year. This will facilitate easier demo rides without the long idle area required of the in water location of the show. The guys in the Black Thunder booth at the convention center will give you driving directions. I'll be doing the demos on Saturday and Sunday. Look forward to meeting you. If you have any difficulties finding us, please call my cell at 954-980-2643.

Thanks Jeff,

Steve

Steve, I will be down unfortunatly only Thursday, so I probably will not get a chance too meet you. The sole purpose to come down is to visit Black Thunder and Nor-tech's booth. I apprieciate your help, thanks, Jeff. :D

We checked out the 46 extended cockpit at the Lauderdale. Suddenly a boat I hadn't considered made its way to my VERY short list of manufacturers I want to buy from. The interior of the cockpit was almost on a level with the Sunseekers we looked at. Great boat!

I have to say BT makes a hell of a boat. Never ridden in one, seen several, and walked thru one at a boat show. Overall a hell of a big boat that posts some impressive speed numbers for its size. There were however a few imperfections on fit/finish that I though could have been done better.

I have tied up next to some 43's and their overall deck height and size was more substantial than my 42 Sonic. Read an article a while back on the 46 BT with tripple 500's. Very impressive boat !

BT is on my list of potential next boats. I like the ammenities & head room. As long as she can run in the 70's thats fine with me.
The Active Thunder 42 is supposed to have head room and also post some good numbers. 8600lbs hull weight if I remember correctly.

SteveDavid?
 

SteveDavid,

What pitch 5 blade hydros are you running? Just curious.

P.S. What are the B-maxs running these days? $$$$

Hi Ray,

I'm running 15.50 X 29 pitch P-5's with diffuser rings on 1.36 gear ratio XR drives.

Steve

I have a 1996 (built and bought in 95) 43' flat deck non stepped hull. It came with 330's in it I built some 496cid engines that dynoed at 598 hp and installed them spring of '97.
We boat about 100hrs a year and it still has the original Bravos. It is not a drag racer and I tend to bring it out of the gate pretty easy. I get the 4 blade 26 pitch bravo props out of the water a once in awhile but never real hard. We did break the an ear off of one of the Intimidators that came with it.
Steve

Re: Bravo Drive Breakage on BT
 

I have a 46 SC with 675's and broke 3 drives, then I replaced with B-MAX'S they have worked very well. I have a friend with the same engines, he tried the Imco's and they broke as well, he canged to B-MAX'S, also now Blackthunder has built several with B-MAX'S.

Re: Bravo Drive Breakage on BT
 

I have a 43 BTSC with trip 500EFI and have lost the center and port outdrive this season (bravo 1). The previous owner had also lost the port drive. I have talked to mercruiser and they recommend the XR drives. Any for Sale?
Gene/Insanity

Re: Bravo Drive Breakage on BT
 

Bob Jenkins builds a hell of a boat. I would recommend xr drives and be easy comming out of the hole. Good Luck

David

Re: Bravo Drive Breakage on BT
 

Insanity,

Tony SanMarco at SM Marine in Fort Lauderdale has some XR's available at very favorable pricing. Last week he had 2 new XR lower units, low water pickups and 2 lowers with regular pickups for $2,700 each that I think are still available.
His # is 954-764-1724. He just put a new Port drive on mine. A $60 pinion bearing went away (XR) and that took out the lower gears. $2,800 later and she's all back together and the fun factor needle is back at 100%.

Steve

Re: Bravo Drive Breakage on BT
 

theres a guy here in jersey with a BT with imco shorties and and chief 675sc's he has blown 2 drives in less then a a month, he had about 150 hours on the drives then started hitting some waves.

is it really the best way to go switching to #3's or just jumping right to #6's?

Re: Bravo Drive Breakage on BT
 

Look at Konrad drives. I have SSM #5 drives, twin 600 CI NA EFI 735 HP TMP engines, and Huber 1000 transmissions. Boat is 97 Twin Step SC430. Cruise @ 3500 RPM = 50 MPH on GPS. My drives have 3 inch spacers and no boxes. It is currently for sale in the OSO classified ads. I specifically re-rigged it from bravo's to avoid breakage. If I were to do it today I would go with the Konrads with the transmissions in the box. Joe Murray

Re: Bravo Drive Breakage on BT
 

Go to LOTO and go by Bergers Marina, there is always black thunders with blown xr;s, They simply wont hold up and ask the black thunder owners at the lake about drive failures. Have spoke with couple of owners who are in litigation now with BT. also take the boat out in rough water and try to keep ir from porpoising and swaying because of cg problems. I tested 3 of them could'nt keep boat in water at 60mph in the rough stuff with tabs buried.

Re: Bravo Drive Breakage on BT
 

Heard the same thing about the bottom of the boat now being all messed up and running very poorly, due to CG issues. The 46 at the Chicago show had HUGE tabs on it. I asked the rep about the oversized tabs and he stated that the owner wanted these because they look good.

BT does not want to rig anything with a transmission, as it causes more issues. However, they do not want to use Konrad with an extension boxes (with tranny inside) as they already have boxes built into the transom.

Good luck with the litigation! They took a chunk of my money before I bailed on the deal. I guess I got off easy.

Re: Bravo Drive Breakage on BT
 

CG issues???? We seldom even use the tabs on our BT. We don't have issues with porpising. I had a Top Gun before this and the BT has a much better overall ride. And that's at a 60 cruise.

Re: Bravo Drive Breakage on BT
 

I have often wondered if these boat would work well with staggard engines. Does anyone know of one?

After a couple of rough poker runs the boat we had our first outdrive problem. We have 540's/650+hp. We were going 75 with 9 people and 150 gallons of gas on board. :D After the lunch stop, 1 outdrive wouldn't go back into gear. I'm off to see Mr. Gadgets on Monday.

Mr P just called me on his way home from Mr. Gadgets, it was a minor bearing problem, $100.00 repair and it looks like the boat will be back in the water by the weekend :D I am sure he will elabortate later Ms PatriYacht,

Re: Bravo Drive Breakage on BT
 

I've seen a 62 page hydrodynamics engineer sealed analysis of the 460ec hull, cg, and seaworthyness conclusions, and believe me the cg is way off.Right now its in litigation, but will become public after that. As far as Bravo failures, even BT acknowledge there is a problem there. The amenities of the boat are awesome but without good handling and rough water ability, and lateral stability, the amenities dont matter, The problem could be easily remedied and then It would be a wave crushing luxury performance vessel.

Re: Bravo Drive Breakage on BT
 

I know that Black Thunder prides themself on having the most headroom in its class, but who is 6'10" tall anyways? The 460SC's seem to handle well as horseplay noted (obviously the third engine will lower the CG). Also, just out of curiosity, who did the hydrodynamic study? Hopefully the problem can be remedied.

Re: Bravo Drive Breakage on BT
 

Was done up north and person who had it done spent over 75k for it, needless to say he has a 46ec with less than 28 hours on it and had already blown 4 drives, xr's, not sure where the case is but it is so specigic that I needed to brush up on my thermo and static dynamics , physics and calc. books from college to interpret it. weight distribution, step pattern, hull heightvs. beam width and unacceptable torque loads ability from drives were biggest problems, you can watch the Black thunders at loto go up and down in the rough water. I saw it in florida as well. I went to their facility in Hannibal, and they were working on the porpoise problem and lateral sway problem 3 years ago by truing to bury x dimension, but were scrubbing too much speed. They were putting Bravos on to keep a 525efi boat at 70mph for marketing. I tried 3 of them out and they had had identical problem could'nt keep nose down even with full tabs. could only run 60 wot

Re: Bravo Drive Breakage on BT
 

That sounds strange. I have thought of staggering mine and putting on better drives but the boat is too old to throw large amounts of money at it, and so far we have not had any major problems. Better to start with a newer one. Are all of the step hulls having this problem?

Re: Bravo Drive Breakage on BT
 

Mine is a '97 SC430 with twin steps. When I bought the boat it had HP500, Bravo 1, Boxes. The motors had been moved up 1" and the Stellings boxes dropped all the way down and Imco flex shafts with HP Merc engine couplers. 70 MPH top speed, plane of in a heartbeat with out tabs with a full load. When I re-rigged I raised the X to put the point of the gear case even with the running surface @ the transom with out boxes.The transmissions moved the motors forward about 18". It took full tab, 800HP blower motors and a long time to plane with a light load. Would not plane with a heavy load. Added 2" drive spacers and it was better. Changed motors to 735Hp NA and added another 1" drive spacer. Boat comes on plane really nice now and I think if I got some newer round ear 5 blade props or went to boxes it would really pick up the top end. The main problem with the Stellings boxes is the same problem center motors have in triple applications, the drive is bolted to solid to the flywheel with out the coupler. Joe Murray.

Re: Bravo Drive Breakage on BT
 

Joe, do all boxes require you to run solid drive shaft on staggard apps? I'm using Imco boxes now with std Merc couplers.

Wiggler, are they really that bad or are you trying to sell more Nor-tecs? You are natural competition for Black Thunder.

Re: Bravo Drive Breakage on BT
 

Ian, the Imco boxes and drive shaft into the Merc coupler are the way to go vs. the Stellings with the solid bolt on connection. You might look at Max Machine Works or B-Max drives for next season. You might consider the Konrad drives with the transmissions in the hull to move the engines forward 18". Also with the Konrads you won't have to worry about drive breakage. Have them make a box with a Bravo to Konrad bolt pattern and it should be a bolt on. Talk to Biggus about the application. If you have access to a place to work on the boat with over head lift this should not be too bad a rerig plus the Konrads use the less expensive Bravo style props. With the transmissions you still have a drive plate to help absorb shock while shifting. Joe Murray

Re: Bravo Drive Breakage on BT
 

I'mnot saying they are bad, The engineers report is where I got my information, I personnally like the boat and almost bought one,they just have some problems with the hull and your right the Konrad is perfect for the BT. I have tested the 460ec numerous times and my opinion is the boat is unstable and does'nt do well in rough water like at LOTO. Come down and ride in a Nortech and you compare, Wont cost you a dime and I'd like to say hi to you guys again. Dont take my comments the wrong way. Just try out and drive all the boats before you buy.

Re: Bravo Drive Breakage on BT
 

I have a few comments and not to be hard on anybodys boat,
The BT in my eyes is for the people that want the comforts of a cruiser but some speed also. I myself will have one on day just not ready yet. You cannot beat the head room or space that they have. Sure they might not ride the best but a CIG, Nortech , Outerlimits dont even come close for the cabin.
Pick the boat that is going to make the most sense for your needs. Each boat has its plus and minus. Just put a good drive on the boat and dont abuse it and learn the limits and it will be fine.

Re: Bravo Drive Breakage on BT
 

The problem revolves around BT not wanting to rig with anything other than Bravos (IMCO/B-MAX). They are reluctant to rig another VI drive as well as Konrads. I tried to get one rigged with a Konrad years ago and they would not even consider the opportunity. Long story short, I dropped the deal and they hosed me on $$$. BT is not (IMHO) ethical and a company I would work with again in the future.

Re: Bravo Drive Breakage on BT
 

Disagree with you on the cabins. Come down and see the cabin my 50v Nortech, has every amenity the Black thunder does. plenty of heasdroom, i'm 6-4 and has a private suite with door in v berth, plasma tv, dvd, leather couches, Full head, shower, hot water, gen ac, heat, sink ref, icemaker, microwave, plenty of starage, xm satellite, table, fold out beds, sleeps 6, very nice mood lighting, etc. and i have all wood package and gold trim package, very nice.

Re: Bravo Drive Breakage on BT
 

Wiggler, let's lay our cards on the table. You tell us your provable credentials, and I'll tell you mine, fair enough?
First, I'm biased. I own a Black Thunder along with a 55' Sea Ray and a couple of smaller boats. I've been boating for 46 years, and hold a 100 ton masters license. I hold 17 world speed records, including the current world record for Unlimited hydroplanes in competition, both overall race and lap average. (And actually 2005 is turning out pretty well, I'm currently leading in the the Drivers points championship) During the 80's and 90's I won more races in more different hydro classes (APBA) than any living driver, with some 550 race wins. Have served as an expert witnesss in fatal boating accident cases for either the plaintiff or defendant where hull design or driver error was brought into question. Since March of this year I joined the boat test team of Powerboat Magazine as a junior to lead tester Bob Teague. Boating is my passion, not my business.

In the pursuit of complete disclosure, The Black Thunder website shows me as a sales rep in Florida. however I do not and have never accepted a commission or fee of any kind from Black Thunder, their employees, agents or brokers. I Like my 43' triple engine Black Thunder and enjoy sharing that experience with others. I've been their boat show driver at the Miami show since 2000 and I guess in that time I've taken out some 50 or so different customers in the 46'. Many demo rides were just to good folks from OSO who were not potential customers, but wanted to see what the boat was like. Some of those were Sydwaz, Hebert Necessity, Chuck Sprague and others.

The 46' tall deck is most assuredly a high CG boat. Currently it rides much better with triples than twins. Yes indeed BT is working on improving the ride with twins and is making hull changes to insure a better product. The ultimate goal is a rock solid 70 MPH with twin 525's and a similar ride at 80+ with triple 525's.

My 43' runs in the low 90's at 5 PSI. Much of my boating time is spent in the Bahamas in virtually all conditions. I've run in 7-9's often (Not of choice, but neccesity) and never, ever experienced a hull failure.

As to Bravo failures, anyone who has ever owned a high performance boat with Bravos, has puked them. Whether it's behind a 502/415 HP or 700hp whippled 502's like mine. The reality is a 12,000 lb boat (BT) is a heavy boat and unless one is delicate on the sticks, you're going to blow drives. And Wiggler, go back thru OSO history, and you'll find a 50' Nortech out of Texas (4 engines) that blew Bravos faster than Carter made liver pills. Nortech's fault, absolutely not, the Bravo in that as in similar applications is a weak link.

As to BT not installing any other drive, that's not altogether true. They have installed #6's on a staggered 43 that ran over 109 at LOTO. They have installed Arnesons and B Max drives as well. Boomer, they will install a Konrad if you wish. Konrad, by the way, is an excellent outdrive and the Konrad folks are first rate in every respect.

The history of BT has been a super stable 43 flat deck, both stepped and non stepped, a 43 tall deck that is rock solid both stepped and un stepped and a 46 triple with an excellent ride and 46 tall deck twin that offers a good ride and is getting better with a commitment from BT to make it perfect.

As to their customer service, my experience and that of most BT owners I know, has been excellent with an unrelenting desire to serve their customers, whether you are an original buyer or used boat buyer.

Steve David

Re: Bravo Drive Breakage on BT
 

Steve, you seem to be one of the good guys in the business. I was only sharing my discussions I had with BT. In fact, you helped me with several questions on the BT years ago.

When I was looking, I was told that they would not rig another boat with Speedmaster drives in a EC version, as the engine bay was too tight.

While BT may now be open to installing Konrad drives, they were not open to the idea a few years ago. They informed me that they did not want the transmissions in boxes (as it would throw off the CG), and they did not want to move the twin enging application forward (to accomodate the trans) as it would again throw off the CG.

Since there was no 'solution' and I had been working on this for over a year, I dropped the deal. The manangement of BT did not work with ME on MY deal. I hope I was the exception to dealing with customers, rather than the rule.

Re: Bravo Drive Breakage on BT
 

Nice credentials, but that has nothing to do with the ride of the BT, 43 rides very good, 46 does not simple, period. I say if you like the boat then buy it, just test all comparible boats thats all. enough said. just stating facts, also most of the brokerrs at loto will tell you they are hard to resale and dont hold value well, again just facts from others, not my opinion on any of my posts. good luck