Buying is hard
 

Hello all,
I'm new to the board but not new to the world, and certainly not new to boating. I'm in the market possibly for a new boat and was looking into Cigs. I've read just about every post on here and its funny how the ones about prices and values seem to create such issue.
Thing is, as a buyer, of course I'm gonna look for the best deal. Why wouldn't I? It seems that everyone gets offended by that from buyers. Why? I'm sure when you all bought your boats from dealers or elsewhere, you didn't just say "hi, how much? Oh, its special cause you say so? Ok, then I'll pay you more than you're asking for it" Maybe some did but I doubt many of us were able to amount enough wealth to buy these things buy making uncalculated purchases throughout life right? So why is buying a boat so different? Why is it offensive to get a low offer? The market for all things sucks right now. No buyer wants to spend for something to find out the next week the market dropped even more and his new purchase is worth less does he? I see the comments of "don't waste my time" from sellers why would you list your boat for sale if you aren't interested in hearing from buyers?
I guess I just don't get what I'm missing. I'm able to buy the boat that I'm looking at but the prices range so dramatically it confuses me. Fact is, boats are non essential toys. They have a market but that market is only made up by the value of other non essential toys. And I also notice that when boats do sell it becomes a secret. I haven't really been able to find what anyone pays for their boats. Why? We post HP, Top speed, how many girls in bikinis, but never what we paid. Is it embarrassing? Do we not want to have someone tell us we paid too much? Is it an ego thing? I'm looking for a 35. There's a few on the market. I've researched each one. Made offers on them based on what I know about them. To hear the sellers talk about it, each one is the best one ever. They forget to mention things like repo, blown drives, etc. It was from research that I found those things out. Shouldn't that affect my offer? or because its a cig, it doesnt' matter?
I'm not bashing or criticising, cause I want one myself. I just am trying to figure out why there is this whole aire of negativity towards buyers. I"m a buyer and I may but a boat. but I'm not going to do it without due dilligence. Its a bummer to me cause there are really very few choices for me right now. I'd like a 38 and there are a ton out there but for me its just a little too much. So I'm left with the 3 that are out there and they are just not that great to me. They each have some issues. I'm hoping that something will come along and I'll pick it up, but I was just wondering why the negativity towards the buyer? And really wondering why I can't find out what anyone buys their boats for. Thats how a "market" is created buy knowing value. Right now in boats its hard to find a value.
OK, thought finished for now.

Hello and welcome. I just bought a Cafe and had quite the opposite experience - several folks offered to speak with me off line and had very concrete examples of recent purchase prices and the basis for those prices. Everybody makes their own deal but it is true that very few post financial information for everyone to see. This makes sense as this seems to be a pretty closed community and I know I don't want some buyer waving a printout showing my purchase price at me when it's time to finally negotiate a sale at some point in the future. The other extreme does exist - there is a current post in general boating where some guy went so far as to post his purchase price, the term and rate for his loan, and how much he put down. TMI for a public record if you ask me.

Although others are probably much more qualified to speak with you about the amount of research necessary and proper valuation for certain qualities and equipment, I would be happy to share my experiences if you PM me with some contact information.

Regards and welcome,

David

First, welcome to the site, and I hope you do join the Cigarette family. You can't make a better choice in my mind.
Well, just on this site, it looks like there's 5 Cafes, 2 35' Mistress', 1 35' Playboy, and 1 Bullet.
Prices ranging from the $40's to $100K. Some of them look very nice. In my mind, when you see more than a 100% variance in price, it tells me that the old adage of "you get what you pay for" is never more true than the boat market, especially today.
However, the asking price and the selling price ARE two different things. If I were selling and someone offered me 50% of asking, I WOULD be offended. Just like most people would be offended if they got a 50% offer when they are selling a car. Same thing. If someone would offer me 2/3's to 3/4's my asking price, that's enough to start a reasonable discussion. I think most Cig owners with items in the classifieds probably expect something in that ballpark.
Going back to my first sentence, I think most listed here would be worth (and I would offer) about 3/4's of asking, pending a clean survey and a good test ride.
Just my 2 cents.

welcome, I think you've approached it correctly, just keep getting info and check each boat out. You know your price range, you don't know the sellers. don't be afraid to make an offer or start a conversation with whomever is selling, if it is a broker, maybe they are working a deal on one that isn't listed yet. By all means don't be like the other tools and start bashing on the internet, keep it close to your vest and I'm sure you will find sellers more receptive to working with you. I think that you will find that even if you are offering less than someone is asking, if you handle the transaction in a professional way, you will be rewarded. it is business not personal.

PM me or email me and i will give you objective feedback on my Cafe purchase. I have done that with several others in the last year or two. You'll have to take it for what it is worth though because the market was different two years ago.

As far as not putting the price out there for the world - I think it is two things; One, a courtesy to the seller, and secondly I think it is the exact opposite of people being egotistical - Everybody on the website has spent a good sum of money on their boat, a total luxury item, and not putting the price out there for the world to see is somewhat modest in my book.

eric.ancarrow (at) ferguson.com

I think alot of people don't put a price down because there are a wide range of boats out there. Salty dogs, abused boats, dirty boats, beasutiful boats, ect. Many times people have pipe dreams about what the boat is worth. If somone is truly interested in your boat, they are going to contact you via email or phone. Ask questions, get additional info, and maybe some more pictures. Throwing numbers around really doesn't do anything. People have an idea in there head on what they want to spend. There is a boat for everyone. Money talks also.

There are also people playing games and tire kicking so see how low the seller will go. So far I have had 2 of these, I accepted the offer that they gave. They have not shown up on the doorstep. I am not worried, seems like there is still a bunch of buyers out there. Boating season is coming. Boaters want to get into a boat that is reliable, won't loose the value and looks good and can run 70+. What boats do you notice when you pull into the dock?????????

Even with the purchase price OUT there you are going to spend more coin reguaardless. Personally I have spent over 15k on my purchase just getting the things the way I want them. and that doesntt include the New trailer.
But you can bet it will be worth it when my eyes are watering when I be Smokin by some TIRE kickers still sittin on shore!!!

Quinlan

forget the 35 & move to the 38.. you will anyway, why waist time..

Im finding most owe more than they can sell for. or dont was to take the big hit..

Just my 02ct.

I also ask, Why get offended? You are getting response to a boat you have for sale which is what you want. It may not be the price you want but it is some interest.

Welcome to the site! I too hope you decide on a cig.... best boat I have ever owned! nothing like it! Good luck in your search!

Eichoma, I second that.I have owned a few and hands down the best out there..CIG #1...:ernaehrung004:

I'll answer your post in two parts.

First; why all the heated debate when the topic of price is brought up on the forums?

In my experience and opinion it's not that people get offended if a TRUE BUYER makes an offer to the seller. I think people get offended and the term "bottom feeder" comes out when people come on here and start bashing a price or trying to beat down a price on a boat they really aren't even interested in or can't afford. Some do it to make themselves feel better that boat prices may be coming down to a price range they can afford and others do it just to make conversation. I don't personally think it's good business to discuss price on an open forum.

Which brings me to the next point.

Why don't people talk about price on here?

I think the main thing is if you publicly display your purchase price it may screw you in the end. I think 99% of the people that buy, expect to sell at some point. What if you got a really good deal on the boat and figure you can sell it for the same price you bought it or maybe even a little more (though those days have sense past I think)? If you talk about what you paid at any point on here, when you go to sell it some tard will bring up the fact that you paid such and such for it and you shouldn't be selling it for that price, etc. etc. etc.

I think when you get around people in a face to face setting (bar, boating, etc), you'll hear what people paid. But advertising it online is not smart in my opinion.

Now, congrats at being one of the few people in this country that can still afford to buy the best offshore boat built in the world!:drink: Hope to see you around.

Tank

I agree with Tank.......if you bought a nice 2004 red corvette and posted the price paid....so what, there are alot of those out there and in a few months no one will care what you paid. Buying a boat, especially a Cig, people will always know that EXACT boat and what it once went for. As Tank said, having that info out there will haunt you (good or bad) when you do try to sell it one day.

Now, if you think we're wrong. Once you buy a boat, please come tell us what you paid for it and how much it took to get it "fixed" up to your liking. (and then you'll probably hear how you paid too much, etc, etc, etc. ):)

Good Luck with the search and don't take offense to my sarcasm, it's just my nature.

Tank and 500, well said...CIG #1

:drink: :drink: :drink: :drink:

Tank hit on it...well stated.

Personally I find it very disrespectful to the seller to question or bash the asking price in a public forum or to post lowball offers.

Of course everyone wants to buy "right", but IMHO the negotiating should be done privately. There are a ton of boats "for sale", but not every boat is "must sell".

This is a very relevant thread to me, as I plant to buy this spring, and hopefully a Cig.

It is extremely tough to judge what a 15 year or older boat is "worth" these days. Basically, the way I see it is the economy is in the ****ter for a while, and when it rebounds, gas will sky rocket. So, there is no rebounding for these types of boats in my mind. There will always be some value to some crowd, but if you buy a 90 now and use it for 5 years, how much value is left if gas is $5+ a gallon, etc.

Combined with the wide range of prices out there, lack of "comps", and the inability to go personally see/seatrial more than one, two tops, it can be quite daunting to make an offer that feels right to you, but could still get accepted.

I sold my 42 Tiger 2 years ago to the day, the boat was listed for about a 3 weeks on Offshore before it was sold. There were several boats that listed at that time with mine and are still for sale today. That said, there could be several reasons, power, options, paint etc. but at the end of the day, it boils down to do you want to sell and do you have a realistic number. I believe that if I held out to what I thought was a fair market price, the boat would not have sold, it had to be a no brainer for the buyer. When you reach the point of negative equity, its time to re think your position, and think to yourself worse case scenario, if I had to get out, could I.
I sold it for $200K, and the boat was 10, with 250 hrs, with all the bells and whistles. stock 500's. I miss it badly, but it was time to sell, not enough time to enjoy.
You can never place a dollar amount on the great times of enjoyment with your family and friends while owning a boat, and for that reason alone, try not to look at it soley on $$$$.
Good luck with your purchase whatever you buy.

Robbie
P.S Also remember you be willing to over pay for something you like, and can't buy it cheap enough if you don't.

Thanks for all the input. These days who knows what happens tomorrow right?
I have the internal debate daily. Of the 35ts's that I can find right now, i've got as much info as I can find. Ones with a broker who bought it from repo from another broker/dealer deal that was kinda sketchy. It sat for almost 3 years now. Who knows whats happened to it since. Yes a survey is obvious, but I'm so much more comfortable knowing history. Good or bad, history is important to me. I like the look of the boat for sure. But I baby all my things and take care of them. That one screams "beat the $hit out of" to me. ANd i'm not saying it is, but it just seems so to me. Granted the price reflects it, and what I'd actually be willing to pay reflects that as well.
The day the boat came back on the market I made an offer. Probalby one that some here would consider offensive but to me it was real. The boat has weak history, a couple of problems and other than looking good, and bearing the Cig name, doesn't really have much value to me. It wasn't meant to be offensive but at the time he wouldn't move from 140K. Now its at 99K and I'm sure will sell less than that. Another one, has FI. That again creates "value" problems for me atleast. To me FI on a boat is ok, but agian, who knows what's happened to it during that time? Few people do motor work to run 55mph. So for me personally, blowers lowers the value of the boat for me.
Another one, which may work is not really how I'd like it to be as far as color, again value. So I sit and wait and hope another one like the one from Channel Is. shows up, one that oozes confidence and not a "Low mileage, runs great" mood.
And as far as the 38. Thats my internal debate almost daily. I know boats. Been on them my whole life. I know the minute you own a 30 you want a 35 and then a 40 etc. I just dont' want to move into something that is so varied. Steps, no steps, 160K, 300K. Huge differences, and I'm not so sure where I'd want to put my money. I love the tg look. Its a beautiful timeless boat. The 35 seems to fit my needs. I'm patient and waiting. I'm sure one will come that all the pieces fall into place.
My assumption is that in reality a 35 with stock power that has a good history will probably cost me around 100K. Not meant to be offensive and I may be off a little but boats don't seem to be moving too fast these days. If I have to pay a little more to make myself feel comfortable I'm prepared to do so. Lets face it, in the end, i'm the one, who needs to sleep well at night. buying one for 80 grand that blows motors, and has issues all season that put more time on the mechanics timecard than on the hourmeters are not what i'm looking for. As we know, even when you have an open line of credit with your mechanic, time is the variable you can't control. And it always seems that the most beautiful weekends are the one when abused parts seem to let go. Thats just my thing but I' don't mind paying for something that I feel is right. I'm not nickle and diming to save a buck as much as I"m tyring to get a decent price on something that I feel I can bring fam and friends down the dock with our coolers and sunglasses turn the key and go. Not say "I bought my boat 40k below market everyone but we can't use it this weekend cause its being fixed." No amount of money can replace the joy of internal combustion, seawater, and sun all in harmony on a saturday.
But who knows, tomorrow is another day. Maybe I'll wake up and want a 38.

Cw, take your time and eventually the right one will come along..If you feel you like boating every weekend, than reliabilty is a must, big horsepower tends to require alot more hands on time than the stock lower horsepower boats.I personally love the fact that I can enjoy my boat every weekend if I choose to and not have to worry about the boat breaking down...As for speed, it doesn't matter what you have someone is always going to be faster, so don't worry about speed.My boat runs right around 90, not the fastest, but definitely runs 90 every weekend and to me that is priceless...Like you said, TURNKEY.....so, take your time and enjoy the time you spend on shopping for one and gain all the knowledge you can along the way...ENJOY...joe:ernaehrung004:

Great post. I don't think anything you said is out of line or offensive at all. I think 99% of the people reading this would agree with your reasoning.

In regards to a 38. Sounds like you're talking yourself out of one because there's so many to choose from. I would think that would be a blessing not a curse. With the 35 Playboys TS there were only 10 or so built. Waiting for the right one to pop up could never happen. Guns are a bit more but worth it.

The Playboy you refered to from Channel Islands was a friend of mines. When he sold it he felt it was at a cheap price. But in this market now, it most likely would be over priced. but the guy that bought it got a truely turn key boat that was maintained with an open check book and babied. The extra money spent will be worth it in the long run on that boat.

When you talk about 38 VS 35's, I could def. tell the difference between a 35 and a 38 in my opinion. If you can get out on a 38 and a 35 it would be worth it. And it may be worth the trouble to start looking at 38's and do some homework. The good thing is you can ask around here if anyone knows a boat and you'll get the honest answer one way or another.

Also, there's a lot of Gladiators on the market for unreal prices! The less cabin is a draw back but GAWD you get a lot of boat for a little money! And the lines on the Glads are just pure sexy classic.

Keep up the hunt. You'll find the ou right boat. By the way, where are you from?

Thanks for the info. I guess the reason that i'm so squared to a 35 is cause I was looking and researching them for about a year. The chan.is one was fantastic. I tried to get out there to see it in person but I never got a chance. I somewhat of a nomad lately. Was on east cost then west coast now back to the fantastic winters of the northeast. I spoke with the owner or whoever was listed on the ad for that boat about it at length and realized it was a good boat from the conversation. It was one of those timing issues. I spoke with the previous broker/dealer I think was passport over a year ago when I was in FL about that one and at the time they told me it was sold even though I was looking at it on ebay while on the phone with them (shady). Then poof its gone. Then whala its back. I forsee too many bloody knuckled sweaty saturdays upside down with that boat that no amount of beer will overcome. I did find myself looking in the classifieds for take outs and thought about that scenario as well but even that usually leads to a seasons worth of debugging.
And although I'm not 100% I belive I saw the 35 with blowers at Ocean perf a while back but I have some more research to do to make sure. The one there had silver drives I think. They said they did the set up in house.
I will find someone with a 38 and take a ride since I'll probably be still looking this spring. I'm about an hour or so from Long Island and there's tons of good hardware there. I'm sure if I'm still only using water wings when the weather warms up I'll take a drive down there and find someone who's interested in gas money for a cruise. I"m gonna start looking into 38's I suppose. there's 50+ g's I wasn't planning on spending:drink:
So I guess I'll start with the basics. From what I understand there's basically a few different type of 38's
1. older straight hulled. Did all of them have full cabin?
2 newer t/s. which could have either full or semi cabin?
3. very new which is a 38 or a 39? but the 39 is a staggered set up? Cabin?
The difference in the two cabin set ups is that the semi doesnt' have a v berth and instead a bulkhead halfway up and raw hull foward of that?
This pretty much the basics thus far without getting yelled at to "read posts" or "do a search"??
They sure are pretty and yes having a ton on the market is a good thing, they are just so varried.
I gotta put together on paper what I think I'd want and then start searching.

For Discussion purposes - all of the Flat Bottom Guns had Full cabins with enclosed heads, V-berth with bed, cooler, sink, and drink mixing table.

The T/S boats have a more spartan cabin. Yes, some have a full cabin, some have an extended cabin, and some have a half cabin - basic layout is couches on both sides, cooler in some, and some have pump out heads in the middle of the cabin between the couches. No enclosed head.

Most people (from a budget standpoint) are either shopping for a T/S or are NOT shopping for a T/S. Flat bottom Cigs take big power to go relatively fast. Have you decided what you want out of the boat? If reliable decent speed is what is important you better go with a T/S gun.

The only reason to go with a flat bottom is that you either want the enclosed head/full cabin layout for overnighting - OR your budget dictates that you are out of T/S range.

OR you believe all the rhetoric lately that T/S boats are unsafe in turns......

Everything is for sale brotha :)

Good points tank...

I paid 45k for my Cafe Racer in 2002. I got a SMOKING deal!! NOT!!! :mad:

Had a survey done that came back clean and brought the boat home.

Put the boat in the water, left the marina and promptly blew an engine. Had both engines removed to be rebuilt...turns out they were rusted, pitted resleeved junk...and needed to be replaced.

YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR!!!!

I now have a Cafe Racer that I've put over 70k into AFTER the purchase price...has BRAND NEW 496HOs with Bravo XR drives, Marine Machine steering and is EXCEPTIONALLY clean.

So do i get offended when someone offers me 30k SIGHT UNSEEN when I'm asking 65k? HELL YES!!! I'll keep the boat and burn it to the ground before I sell it for 30k....and no...I DON'T have insurance.

Oh yeah...and in case no one heard me the last time....

YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR!!!!

Guys, you boys are worrying your self to death about the value of a boat, they are just a toy, If you are going to boat for fun, you can't worry if you will lose money or not, I promise you will, one way or the other. If you have to worry about nickles and dimes this will never be as much fun as it should be. It's like the old saying about the price of gas if you have to worry about it you can't afford it. I'm not trying to be a smart ass about this, but boating should be fun for you and the family,not wondering if your boat is depreciating or not because believe me it is.

You should buy what you like. When thinking about a performance boat you should consider what updates you want and what they will cost in the long run. Is it cheaper to buy a boat that is updated and the way you like it, or buy one that you will have to update and dump lots of money into. Just start adding up specialty parts and you will be at the price of an updated boat.

Major costs to Update
Drives (that aren't based on old technology and hard to get parts for)
:Cockpit Interior/Cabin Interior
:Gauges/Controls
:Covers
:Billet Goods and Powder Coatings
:Props
:Exhaust
:Sea Strainers, Resivoirs, Batteries, Stereo
:Braided Lines, Coolers, Cables, Indicators

Just things to think about

Cw, take your time and find the one that you think suits you the best.Once you find it,make sure you go through it as much as you think you need to to make you feel comfortable about the boat, and then, ask a bunch of questions that you are thinking about and I'm sure you will be happy in the long run.Most of the guys that have owned or own Cig's at the moment are very knowledgeable and have a good idea of what they have.In todays market you will have a wide aray of different Cigs to choose from, but one thing is going to be constant..A CIG is A CIG and you are definitely going to buy into a top notch boat and brand with many years of product knowledge..CIG #1...:ernaehrung004:

P.S. IF you are really going to buy a boat, and especially if this is your first one, relax enjoy, because if the truth be known' it's a lot more fun to look to dream to want and to plan. It's like owning a Mercedes, after the first month it's just something to drive to the store to get a loaf of bread.

truer words have never been spoken.

Now if Luke is selling his Playboy, you should jump on it CW. That right there will be the cleanest Playboy anywhere when he's done re-doing the power.

Agreed 100%!!! on both counts.

Again, agreed. You have to remember that everyones finances are different. Someone with lots of liquid cash can not worry about their boat depreciating. Those that have it financed or struggled just to buy the boat do.

Two years ago I could've sold my boat and made money. Now, maybe break even if not under. But the way I look at it is, now I don't have to worry about selling it. It was always in the back of my mind, "I should sell this thing before it's not worth what I paid". But I can't afford a TS (right now), so what am I going to buy? Now that the market sucks, it just gives me an excuse to keep it forever!:drink: It's been a great boat and serves our needs perfect. Not the fastest but it's treated us very well.

The problem is for every boat like yours that has been updated and priced fairly, there's some 88 Bullet with a black dash, original power, etc, asking 62K still. Anyone that knows something should see your HO's are a big upgrade, but the guys calling and offering half may not be aware of what's been done to it?

As is obvious by your price, you can't get much return on any "investment" in a boat these days.

I plan on it being nothing but a money pit, but I still want to get the most bang for my buck, and with a limited budget it can be tough to find the right boat.

Yep,
Thanks for all the input. When I get some time, i'm gonna start looking at 38's some more.
The cig's I've been on have run like tanks through the water. Different than others I've experienced. There was much noticable differences. The rattles, bangs, squeaks, etc. that you hear on other boats just weren't there. And I'm definitely not attempting to break any water speed records and although blowers, talldeck motors, air scoops in the sundeck are totally cool at the dock and serve a purpose, thats not me. The Merc racing 500's or 525's are proven motors that I know. they are solid and with some minor maint. and updating they will do excellent service duty. The 35's with those motors (500's) were more than fast enough for me. a 38 with similar power although a little slower would still be fine. I think the straight bottoms are great cruising boats but I'd proably opt for T/S cause I do want to keep close to the pack and age does play into it for me.
I've been around, on, in, under boats for years. This wouldn't be my first but regardless the number, I think its always good to get to know the boat your intersted in if its not the same as you've had in the past.
I know the Cig brings with it an entire "entorage" of stuff which is like any smaller knit group, Ferrari, Lambo, M's AMG's, etc. And I guess there's got to be a little inner pride when someone says "is that one of those Cigarette boats?" and you can say wholeheartedly, "why yes, it is." although the person asking wouldn't know the difference if you paid them.
Tradeoffs are in everything, I started with the 35 in mind, there's no reason not to explore the 38 and see what happens.
Does anyone know how the current state of our economy is effecting the company itself? I figure with used boat values going down the market for brand spankin new ones has got to feel some effect. And I'm not shopping them, but are new boats dropping in price? Are they selling at all. Someone told me that barely any banks are even loaning on boats anymore.

Economy is effecting every aspect of the boating industry from new to used, no difference than automotive, in fact alot worse. That said, if you have the capital to make a purchase, you could not ask for a better opportunity, but also remember your one of the few, so if you do buy new or used, plan owning it on a long time basis, it will be years till things turn around.
Manufacutrers are in terrible shape, and as they make every effort to sell product for less, so does the used market. Banks are in clean up mode and there are companies that must get off their books. Unfortunatley this will lead to many companies having no alternative than to perform temp shutdowns or shutdown completely due to lack of capital, its all across the board, automotive, avaition, etc. no one is immune, NO ONE!