Bottom Wedge...
 

Has anyone ever added a wedge to the bottom of their flat bottom gun? After talking to Tres Martin he suggested adding a wedge to the bottom of my boat for more transom lift. The wede consists of 1/8 glass added to the flats of the chine and the strakes that taper down to 0" over the distance if 14". Iam currently running #5's on boxes and suposedly need this mod for the boat to ride correctly (creates high pressure at the transom and adds lift and lets it fly level rather than bonering up every big wave that is hit). He said he has seen as high as 5mph increase on a stock bravo boat but claims a solid 3mph.

I hate to say it, but I would consider sending it to lipship. Should help resale too because there are just not many cig buyers that would want to gamble with that kind of modification made by anyone else.

Im sure phil wont be doing any glass work himself and he will probably out source the work anyway. i Don't see how the mexican kid that would probably end up doing the work will do any better of a job than say some one like "glass dave". Dont especially want to trailer it all the way to FL for a simple mod when there are guys more than capable of doing it just an hour away. If there were two identical boats side by side and one was a lipship and one wasn't im sure 98% of people couldnt tell the difference. just my .02 cents....

I think he meant that Phil could do work with your current set up to dial it in without the glass work you speak of. A call to Phil at the least is in order.

I talked to phil after a poker run this summer about my setup...i don't think he wanted any part of it. In a nut shell he told me to sell what i have and to move to a twin step and to get in a boat with newer technology. Sure easier said then done but i'm trying to work with what i have. Tres Martin is a guru on setting these boats up and i have no doubt that he knows what he's talking about....I was just wondering who had this modification done to their boat and how it handled after. I believe he started dong it to stop the porpoising issue these boats had.

Bigfarmer I have a 1995 flat deck and am interested in what you are talking about. I do my own glass work and would love you to daw a diagram of what you are talking about so I can visualize the finished design.
Thanks Rick G.

You can get more transom lift by changing props. 5 blades create more transom lift. Rake plays a role as well. Maybe use BBlades test program.

Can you get me a diagram of the bottom of our boats? I've searched for a picture of the bottom and came up short.

Do the Arneson Rocker Plates achieve the same thing?

Which lifting strakes? The ones that run all the way to the transom or the inner ones as well?


This doesn't seem that difficult to do. All you need to do is layup a flat fiberglass sheet on a flat surface, wide and long enough to cut out all the pieces you are talking about doing. Then grind the taper you are wanting into it (0 to .125" over a 14" distance), this would be the dirty part but not that hard.

Then make templates of your strakes/chines, transfer to your flat fiberglass sheet and cut them out. There was a member here that gave a good write-up on how to temporarily bond additional strake length onto the bottom of the boat for testing purposes before permanently doing so ( I'm pretty sure it was BenPerfected). A similar process could probably be used to test your wedges before fully committing and permanently bonding/finishing them in, in case they didn't really help at all.

Another thing to consider is your trailer and how it's bunks are, as long as boat doesn't sit on its chines on the trailer bunks.

+ Was thinking the same thing! Give him specs and he can deliver. Not trying to dis anyone in florida!

Yea Phil won't touch it, in fact he rarely talks to anyone who doesnt want to dish out 200+ K for one of HIS boats, With that said, I am curious why you would go the hull route for 5 MPH ?? I would think a little engine work, props, x dimension, boxes etc... might get what you are looking for and not scare off any potential future buyers cause you changed the hull. I build custom choppers and I have customers come to me all the time to chop their harley frame to make a better rake, my answer is always, you chop it , you own it for life cause 80% of the resale value will be lost immediatley !!

Just my .02

I would listen to Tres, him and his father were Cigarette Dealers and have worked on alot of Cigs from mechanical to Bottoms probably more than anyone.

I don’t believe it is just being able to tell the difference between looking at two boats it is also about the service and good advice that he gives his customers. I am sure that Phil would love to sell you a boat that you can use every day without having handling problems, rather then to keep throwing good money at an experiment. And in the end you could have bought a step bottom. Believe me I know. But if you like your straight bottom boat run it and be happy with it. It will never run as good as a step bottom.

I did not spend any ware near 200k for my boat when I bought it from Phil. Some guys are tire kickers that want to haggle and beat you down, tell you what is wrong with the boat. They want something for nothing. In the end they are not a serious buyer.


Just my .02

Very well said Darren...some people just dont get it.

Todd

I have talked to people that said Tres will do this mod for very cheap (couple thousand $) and they have seen 3-5mph. In my mind its a no brainer. I really don't know so don't get mad but how many race boats has Phil setup and tried to squeeze every last mph out of? Meaning messed with drive heights, bottom config, etc... It's like your car, would you ask the salesman or the mechanic about your brakes?

Really?? You honestly do not know how many boats Philly has set up for racing / pleasure on just trying to get "every last mph out of it"...hell Tres raced the gladiator twin step for all those years that Philly and Neil designed...I think thats pretty cool to design a boat / bottom (ANY CIG TS) that everyone wants now a days! If you ever get a chance to deal with Philly you will realize he is much more than a salesman...on the first day!

Todd

QUOTE=302Sport;3642120]I have talked to people that said Tres will do this mod for very cheap (couple thousand $) and they have seen 3-5mph. In my mind its a no brainer. I really don't know so don't get mad but how many race boats has Phil setup and tried to squeeze every last mph out of? Meaning messed with drive heights, bottom config, etc... It's like your car, would you ask the salesman or the mechanic about your brakes?[/QUOTE]

Anybody can buy a new boat and go fast but not everybody can make a an old boat go fast... Not too many flat bottom full cabin guns can hit 100mph, 3 to 5 would get me in that range. In my opinion a 100mph gun is something worth bragging about. Even if i had a 2012 39' id tear it apart and try to make it go faster, its just the way iam i guess. Since i didn't buy my boat from philly i don't get the lipship service, id rather not talk to someone who has no interest in helping and who is probably rolling his eyes the whole time he is on the phone with me. A Cigarette is a Cigarette and i wouldnt "not" buy a boat because the previous owner did something to it to make it ride and perform better. If that was the case nobody would buy aftermarket or performance parts, there is always room for improvement. im not ripping on phil but what does he actually do to a boat? he supervises it at the factory to make sure everything is done right? the only thing i see is that all the screw heads are matching and all lined up the same and he put a embroidered logo in it....I have two good friends who have top notch cigs that are probably as good as they get and are right from the factory. BUT BACK TO THE ORIGINAL SUBJECT...."Has anyone ever added a wedge to the bottom of their flat bottom gun?"

Are you serious? Phils been racing boats since he was a teenager. Guy holds American and international championships and has been "tweaking" cigarettes to get the top MPH for the better part of his life oh, and he still works with cigarette on changes to the overal design, the bottom, the deck etc.

"salesman"? Yes. But if that's all you know of him then you don't know much. Sure, you hear about the large dollar sales he makes on new cigs all the time but these pale in comparisson to all the "offline" deals he does putting people into their dream boats. Wont talk to you unless you spend 200k? Really? I paid 85k for my gun through him, he helped me on financing and became a very good friend. Me and my wife have had countless meals with him, stayed at his house and have been invoted on poker runs with him. But yea, he only caters to the high end customers!

One of, if not thee most knowledgable people in the industry when it comes to Cigarette and the only person that I know of in the industry that has dedicated his life to cigarette.

I'm not trying to start a Phil vs tres argument. Tres is great in his own right and if he says he can do the work and you respect him so highly why are you on here second guessing what he told you?

Knowing Phil the way I do, you asked Phil about screwing with the chines in order to get a few mph. Instead of being a "salesman" and seeing dollar signs telling you to bring it down and start throwing money at it, it sounds to me like he gave you some sound advise. Which was basically, if you're looking to keep pushing a hull that has met its limits why not sell the boat and get into a used twin step that will run those speeds with virtually stock HP?

Don't dog the guy because he gave you his honest assessment just because it wasn't what you wanted to hear. And definately don't disrespect the guys knowledge and heritage. I those are pretty clear from the vast majority of people in the industry and customers alike that respect him. But there's always haters out there. Go figure.

No offense taken by me.
If Tres can do this modification and gain 3-5 mph (especially for a couple thousand) I think it may be the way to go. I agree it is a no brainer. I can’t tell you how many race boats Phil has set up. I know he has set up his share of race boats.
But I also can’t tell you how many race boats Tres has set up either. I don’t think Phil is interested in setting up a pleasure boat like a race boat. He sells pleasure boats.
I would like to see how this modification turns out.
I know Bigfarmer and I know his boat. And I think he will get his best results with these modifications from Tres.
I am not trying to sound negative; I thought of some same modifications, it was getting frustrating throwing money at my old boat.
I have a friend of mine that told me over and over again ride your boat and enjoy it. It took me a while before I listened. I like my boat a lot more now.

Well said... Im not trying to dog anybody or start arguments just trying to see who has done this to their TG and if it was worth doing or not. Im not claiming to be a professional just trying to learn from other owners.

Thanks guys, I never knew Phil did setup and bottom work. Learn something every day.

All good. Sorry if I came off a little defensive. I just get tired of the haters. I consider Phil a good friend that started out of the superb treatment he showed me and my wife, who are far from high rollers. And I do understand not everyone will get along with him or get what they want from him. But I think he's earned at a minimum the respect not to be bad mouthed - his history in this industry is pretty impressive.

Either way, I understand your desire to tinker and push your boat further and I respect that. I agree with Darren and think if Tres can Gaurantee 3-5 mph for 3-5 k. Seems to be a no brainier. Look forward to the project.


On a side note (and on topic) I take it you're already turning the props in? I would also think that the stand off boxes are actually slowing you down with the V's considering the push the drive down further thus causing more drag.

i have gotten advice from both Phil and Tres, both have been very helpful and gracious with their knowledge. As for your boat, one of the things you have to look at is they all come from the same molds, some run great some dont, that makes one realize that if they are all from the same mold, the only difference would be power and setup. It would make more sense to me to start the changes there and maximize what you can in increments. I dont think any straight bottom would be hurt by having the bottom blueprinted, however I think your issues could more than likely be taken care of with spacing and moving drives and props. just my .02 cents

What is the difference between this mod and dragging a little tab?

I think phil gave some good advise, but don't blame you for not wanting to buy another boat.

I think you should consider playing with weight distribution via sandbags before modifying the hull. If you can get under the cockpit floor put some sandbags in and experiment with weight distribution. Try moving weight infront of the engine bulkhead, then maybe under the drive seat, then maybe the cabin, etc. Modifying the hull should be absolute last resort. Look at how these apache's are running with forward tanks, floor tanks, and saddle tanks. In rough water you have to know how to keep that weight distributed just right. It doesn't take much. My boat is so carefully balanced that changing from cast iron to aluminum heads altered the ride negatively.

What he said and Are you running modern props? On my boat there is a huge difference on rough water handling in the props. BBlades has trial program to test CNC Mercs and Herings.

Nope. Still running 3 blade mirage props. Props could of helped my problem, but the motor blew first so I just went back to cast iron heads, which fixed the problem. I bought the boat with aluminum heads and changed back to cast iron in the repower.