Upgrade 454
 

I am new to this forum, and have searched and read a ton on upgrading my 330 HP 454. The issues that I have is that these engines are in a 28' Cruisers Inc Rogue Sport (Performace Cruiser). This boat has a dry weight of 7900lbs. I only have 2 - 2 1/2 inches available between the engine hatch and the flame arrestor. A little less clearance between the exhaust risers and the floor above the engines in the cockpit. I would like to increase the performance of the boat some (add about 100HP), but I'm not sure what will fit.

The engines have about 50-60 hours on remanned engines (they are 330-340 HP replacements from psengines.com).

I need to see what heads are on the remanned engine to see where to start. I would like to change the cam, change the intake manifold (what fits?), change exhaust (currently have 4" riser outlets reduced to 3" tips), and increase the jet size in the q-jet carbs. I might not be able to go to 4" exhaust, the steering rack is in the way on the starboard engine. If I can't increase the exhaust to 4", will any upgrades help?

Another issue is this boat has alpha drives. They might not hold up to the increased HP.

What upgrades could/should I do? We really like this boat. And purchasing an offshore boat is out of the question. The wife wants to look at Wellcraft boats (Grand Sport or Portofino). I would like to keep this boat and get a little more performance out of it.

Sorry for such a long first post.

Any and all help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Bill

I have an 88 Rogue 2800 with my own engines and Bravos. If your installed height is the same as mine, the only intakes that will work are Edelbrock Torker 2's and Holleys and 3x14 flame arrestors. Email me your addy and I will send you tons of pics and other stuff to look for. I do run 4" through hulls but it was tight. Rogue2800 at Hotmail.com

Improvements
 

Formula31,

What type of performance improvements did you attain? How did you figure out what would fit? Trial and error? Did you try Edelbrock Performer intake or Performer RPM? Will the Q-Jet work with the Torker 2s?

Could you send me a list of engine upgrades that you did. My email is bill DOT yehle AT comcast DOT net.

Thanks,
Bill

They will not handle the torque. IMO, you are asking for problems.

I have a 454/330 in my jetboat. I changed the heads, cam, and intake back in 2000, and installed lightning headers and a new carb back in 2004. The motor runs stonger than ever. Easily bumped it over 400hp, probably more like 425-440.

It is a non-forged motor so can't do too much with it, but I have 100's of hours on it since the heads/cam change It still runs like a beast. Granted, it's only pushing a 1500lb jet boat hull around but I can assure you I work it pretty hard.

I don't usually hammer it out of the hole. I try to ease into it to get up on plane. These alpha drives are 21 years old (have 22 seasons on them) and have not been touched, yet (knock on wood). The drives have close to 500 hours on them, so they might need to get freshened up soon.

What is an alternative? change to Bravo's, TRS's, beef up the alpha's?

Bill

A buddy of mine has one that has upgrades and runs 65 on GPS!!

He is Bravo now, with warmed over 454's here is a link to a thread on my buddys site... search his name you may find some good info, he is also smart..

http://www.islandpirates.net/forum/s...ead.php?t=2439

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e4...20cropped8.jpg
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e4...067resize5.jpg

The best thing to do is use the boat and drives as they were designed for. You'll have many hours of happy boating that way. Alphas really can't be beefed up.

Ive destroyed my share of Bravos with mine. I would also be very wary of the alphas especially on these tanks. Thanks for posting pics of mine full force, most would not conisder what I do to that poor cruiser very smart but thanks anyway. Its not worth switching to Bravos either with this hull. I am maxed out on speed without massive hull mods. You could try it but I think you would need a bevy of spare drives. Theres quite a few of these around if you look hard, not too many 2800's like mine with the low windshield and rails but many of the 30" Rogues have the same hull and many were powered with BBC and Bravos. If I had it to do over again, I would have left it alone and found a 28 something single to go pound around in. The shock value of a strong cruiser goes away after a few years of breaking things.

All the manifold manufacturers list a height (if you call them) and the torker 2 is the lowest ( I think it was originally made to fit under the hood of a vet). I dont think they have a quad version but im not sure. I could never make my quads work as well as the holley top end and I tried. Ill work on the list for you. I personally have been very happy with the torker 2, its a good thing as it's the only one I can use that will fit under the deck. Lets just say that I have a good 5 K in each motor and I do my own work and use mostly junk yard parts. That results in blowing them up until you find which parts you really have to spend money on. I broke one block in half thanks to a dropped valve. I now have the best valves you can buy in it but many are other's (Budah)take outs. Then theres the mods you are going to have to make to the hull. That list is even bigger. New transom to mount the 280 K planes, split the upper and lower hulls and through bolted and 5200 all the way around, stringers and ribs and on and on. Not to discourage you but I tried to make this my live aboard formula 311 and while it is rather amazing, its no offshore. Then theres the impossible maintenance, if yours has the floatation bank of each side, forget about getting a spark plug out without pulling a motor with Gil exhaust manifolds, which you will need to make any power. Im going to stop now as I am depressing myself.

Formula31,

What is the idle quality with the Torker II? On the Edelbrock site it lists the Torker II's range of 2500-6500 RPM. Does it load up when idling alot (long no-wake zones/rivers)? How is it out of the hole? Since I don't have the measurements for the stock cast manifold, I have a hard time determining what will fit.

The Edelbrock site lists the installation dimensions for each of their manifolds. Here are the A/B measurements that I found:
Torker II - 3.825
RPM Air-Gap - 5.225
Performer RPM - 5.225
Performer 2 - 4.85

The difference between these three are 1.4 inches. Can you get a flame arrester that is shallow but long (14" x 2")?

Bill

No problm Tom... I love those pics!!

It will idle at 500 or less if I let it (dont, reversion for sure). It is lower than the stock dual plane cast iron manifold Im pretty sure but i can check. There is no "load-up". All the performance issues you mention dont exist with the proper sized and set-up ignition and carb. I really liked the old 780 cfm vacuum secondarys I had on it better than the 750 mech secondarys I have on it now but they were a bear to setup and not didnt have marine throttle shafts. You would have to see and hear it take off to appreciate how well the system works when setup right.

I love the pics...that boat is awesome. Never have seen a cruiser catching air like that. To see something that heavy moving through the water like that is really neat.

What cam and ignition did you use with that intake manifold? Did you get something that worked in the RPM range of the manifold, or a hotter marine cam? Did you use the stock thunderbolt ignition, or an aftermarket?

Thanks,
Bill

Torker 2 cam. .527, .553 224 232 at 114. Its very close to reversion. 75 degrees of overlap. rollers going in them this year. Stock TB4 ignition is about the most reliable thing going, mine are still stock from 88 in the metal boxes.

How do you prevent reversion? There isn't enough room to raise the exhaust risers. What is your idle set at, ~1000?

Bill

You go dry which I cant because I have switchable exhausts. I try and keep them at 800 min. I did a test at 750 rpm with one engine in. shut down, pulled the manifold, wet to within 4 inches of the valves. Needless to say, I run inconel exhaust valves and severe duty intakes.

Toms boat rocks!!

Currently, I have non-switchable exhaust. If anything, I would upgrade to 4" thru-hull exhaust, then put either muffler tips on, or copy what a friend built for his boat (4" tips with switchable flaps which direct the exhaust down thru a number of holes drilled in the bottom of the tips).

Who makes a dry exhaust, and where does the water exit?

Thanks,
Bill

All it takes is money!!!!!!!!! Your wallet or your wife will tell you how fast you can make it run .:boat:

Jeff P31,

I understand about the ratio of money to speed. I just want to make smart upgrades to these engines to help both efficiency and speed.

Also, I have a friend that just purchased a 1989 31' formula with the same engines as I have. I would be nice to be able to keep up with him and/or pull away from him (or not have him pull away from me).

I won't be able to do any work to the engines for a couple of years, but would like to have an idea of what will work and fit in my boat.

Thanks,
Bill

TURBOS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I wish I could fit them. I can barely wedge in 4" exhaust tips. I'm not sure how close upgraded exhaust will be to my cockpit floor. Also, I'm not even sure I can fit an upgrade intake manifold.

Formula31 has a torker II intake manifold on his, so that would fit.

Turbos would bump the cool factor up a couple of notches, though.

Bill

Sawzall!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Does Jeff know his HP limits or what.:evilb:
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/i...h_ef5e67a0.jpg

Chromecat has a bunch of parts you might want to consider. He has a list of them in this thread 502 projects.

I looked at that thread, but I have a Gen IV BBC. I don't think they interchange.

Bill

I have been building Chevys for both high performance auto and marine for years, particularly the BBC. All the intake and camshaft upgrades wont do you a bit of good without aquiring a true high performance exhaust and unfortunately, that will be the most expensive upgrade. I'm not talking about "performance manifolds", but an actual water jacketed header system is the only way to make your BBC have breath ing potential. Always remember that an engine cannot breath in what it cant get out and 3 or 4 inch exhaust after the little 2x2in. path that is cast into the riser is a mute point. Besides that, the stock exhaust manifolds themselves are a nightmare from any performance standpoint. On one bank you have #'s 8-4 exhausting one after another which causes all kinds of trouble with the incoming intake charge on the subsequent cylinder and on the other bank you have #'s 5 and 7 doing the same thing only worse because they are right next to each other. The other thing with stock manifolds is all the exhaust is dumping into a common "log", litteraly smashing into a wall and then following a torturous path, to find it's way out. When exhaust pressure is present, a contamination of the fresh intake charge will occur during overlap. It seems a waste to worry about performance upgrades unless the exhaust problem is addressed and you said that you have the 330HP engine which means you have peanut port heads that wont deliver any horsepower past 4500rpm in a 454. An aluminum intake wouldn't hurt in that it would take some weight off the engine and improve the intake flow slightly. Also, as you know, Alpha's aren't by any means a strong drive and I dont really know how much they will take before they self destruct. Sorry for the long winded reply, I'm just trying to save you some money and disapointment. JW

What would the 496 manifolds and risers provide???? I've heard that they will improve mid-range torque through better exhaust flow efficiency??? You would also drop a bunch of weight if you had the aluminum 496 manifolds. I'm curious since I have stock 454 mags in my Scarab and would like to try and squeeze 40 to 50 hosepower potentially out of each engine.

I am running the 496 stuff on mine, I make about 450 hp, Iw as told by alot of people that they support up to 500-550 hp easily.
The 496 Manifolds are actually pretty nice, seperate runners into a big 4" riser

If I take it easy, the alpha's might last. If not, it is easier to get the insurance to replace outdrives than engines. I think I will just change the exhaust tips from 3" to 4" this offseason.

Bill

Not when the insurance finds out they have more HP going through them then they are supposed to, I know how Tom has smoked Bravos on his Rogue, I will say the Alpha has no chance on that boat with bigger HP.

How will the insurance co. find out that there is more horsepower? Will they dyno the engines for me? I plan on keeping it stock looking (keep the q-jet, 496 exhaust manifolds, not sure which cam or intake).

Bill

Not sure, but I have heard sometimes they will investigate, either way.. there is now way those alphas are going to hold up on a heavy 28 foot boat with decent power, again.. that is my opinion..

Good to hear as I already have the 496 aluminum manifolds and risers. Just need to polish the risers and complete the install. What did you use for your shift cables mounting? I aso have remote mounted oil filters off of the stock manifolds too.

No shift cable issues for me, I have TRS!

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e4...g/113_8265.jpg