489 Stroker cam ?
 

Hi all,
Need a little help with this one. I have this motor,
MIE/340 (7.4) 454 Big Block – 4 bolt - 30 over
Block was detailed with all casting debris removed
Molly piston rings
Federal Mogal bearings (cam, main & rod)
Cloyes true double roller timing chain
Moroso Chevrolet 454 Stud Girdles #6729 BBC
Crane #99277 lifters
Comp Cams High-Tech pushrods #7954
Completely refreshed Chevy 14096188 heads / 454 Open / 118cc / 3angle valve
Comp Performance Valve Springs #911-16
Pioneer head bolt sets
ARP 1.90 rocker studs
Norris S/S 1.7 roller rockers
Melling H/V oil pump
Melling HV oil pump shaft.
EDELBROCK BBC R2 AIRGAP INTAKE
JEGS 15951 - Mechanical Fuel Pump
ProComp ignition
Pro Comp distributor
Super Stock coil.
8mm Accell Hi performance wires
New single wire alternator
Mini (gear reduction and fully marine) starter
Edelbrock 800 carburetor
Edelbrock oval air cleaner (with K&N filter)
Brass freeze plugs
Stainless steel bolt set
4” Stainless steel risers
GLM aluminum manifolds
Sherwood motor mounted raw water pump.

I’m taking this out;
Stock seasoned crank
Reconditioned connecting rods
ARP Rod bolts
.210 Domed Speed pro pistons and pins. (They should give me 9.38 to 1)

And replacing with,
Scat 4.25 Crank
Scat 6.385 Rods
K.B. Pistons -17cc Solid Dome Top
With the heads I have it should get about 10.25 (maybe) to 1.
Is this cam good enough for this set up?
Crane #132561 hydraulic cam--Duration Advertised: 298° Intake / 306° Exhaust Duration @ .050'' Lift: 228° Intake / 236° Exhaust Valve Lift (w/1.7 Rockers): .530'' Intake / .551'' Exhaust Lobe Separation Angle: 114°

I wouldn't go with any more duration but you could use a little more lift. I run pretty much the same set up except mine is bored .100" over for 505 cu. in's. I run a Ultradyne 296/304 with .575/.600 lift. Only a 23' single engine but works very well.

That is a good cam though.

There are a few other things you might want to check out. One being the fuel pump, it is to small for that engine.That pump is only 80 GPH and has 1/4" lines. That thing can lean out your engine on the top end and burn up pistons or valves. You need something more like the Holley 712-454-13 marine pump which pumps 130 GPH and uses 3/8" lines.It would have been a good idea to put Inconel exhaust valves in when you were having the valve job done due to the extremely high exhaust temperatures of a marine engine. Another thing is a high volume oil pump isn't really needed on that motor. If you are using a stock pan there is the possibility of pumping it dry.It also uses more power to turn it.Also if you are changing to a negative 17cc piston top your compression is only going to be around 8.75 to 9 to 1. You need a flat top which would give you more like 9.5:1. Also you could use a 850-1050 CFM Holley or Demon MARINE carb. Holley has a calculator on their web site that can tell you which carb is recommended for your engine .Don't really need a stud girdle on that motor either.

Just my 2 cents.

Sorry, I don’t think that is a “-“ mark, I think it was a dash. According to KB they should give me 10.25 to 1.
It has a 8qt pan. As for the carb, I feel safe. It is an off road Edelbrock and having them side by side with a 750 Edel Marine there is no difference except for the fuel pump over flow input and that was a simple fix. Inside and out they are the same. That is why I only use Edelbrock. Maybe not the best in the world but they are simple and defiantly can take a licking and keep on ticking.
As for the fuel pump. I have all big lines to and from the tank to the pump to the carb but I will have to look into fuel flow. Thought it should be OK being a normal 454 only needs a 43gph and mine almost doubles it but …….
I’m not trying to build a monster. About 500hp is the limit for my old Volvo drive. I also wouldn’t mind bring back my cruising RPM’s back a little. I’m more into it for the torque. Even though the boat is 19 feet long it is a big old heavy boat. Built by Allmand in 1972 and is 8’ wide at the transom. There is a lot of ass to move around.

That looks like a flat tappet cam. Do you have the money for the roller setup. I have been through all this before with the off the shelf cams. Last year I went with a full roller setup from RMbuilder, cam, springs, timing chain, ect..... I gained 5MPH plus the boat idles better, plains quicker. That will give you way more power than switching out all the other parts. Before you spend any money I would give him a call, tell him what you have and what your goals are. Best speed return for for the dollar I have spent.

I just took another look at your post. Do you have long risers? Did you upgrade your oiling system?
I have a 489 stroker also. The forged rods and forged stroker crank are a good upgrade.

Ya, it’s a flat tappet. It’s the infamous “420” cam. Last spring I thought it would wake up the motor a little but I was not as happy as I thought I would be.
The stroker kit is bought. It was kind of a gift in a long story. Along with a couple Gen V 454’s I just finished up for the race boat (pretty much stockers) the stroker has become a side project for a boat that if a boat ever need a stroker it’s this one.
As for oil, I planned on adding a oil cooler (I already have it also). It does have one of those big thick aluminum pans already.
As for exhaust. I have the GLM’s now. I have been open to upgrading for a while so it is on the list.

Like I said, I’m not to looking to build a monster. To be honest I wouldn’t mind a little more top end but the main goal is to bring down the cruising rpm. Not that I am world traveling with the boat. Maybe 5 to 7 mile runs at a time but I find myself “cruising” around 4000 rpm’s. Thought this would help

I would consider a roller cam and upgrade the exhaust. At the very least if you decide to stay with hyd. flat tappet I would consider a better one than the 420 HP cam. Those are a decent cam for a 454 however I think you'd be wasting your CI and all your other mods with that one. I ran it for a few years in a 454 and it worked well with all other stock components. I know what pistons your talking about and that might be a little much unless you hog your chambers out to around 124 cc's or so. That would be easy to do or otherwise look into thicker head gaskets. At least with a little chamber work you'll improve performance as well.

Like Jeff said call Bob or otherwise Gellner Racing for your cam needs. Dean G. helped me out a great deal with cam specs for my 496's. Valako is another wizzard when it comes to power. All depends on what your looking to do. Your package is near many out there with already proven cams. So if you choose to find one on your own it should be pretty easy. You'll also gain a great deal of power with some after market heads however I know this gets expensive but you can always look for a good deal on a used set ready to go and sell yours. You should easily get over 500HP with a rather conservative set up though.

thats going to be bigger than a 489 w/.030, std bore 454 and 4.25 crank is 489...Rob

the 561 cam is NOT the 420 cam i believe the 531 is. The cam you have is bigger than that one.

I was hoping to find something off the shelf. I spent a lot of time with Bob last month with a Gen V reverse rotation cam. Not really looking to go full custom. I would love to go roller but Mark IV kits are expensive. I will keep my eye open for one but I like having options. A future cam swap can happen later if I do not come across a roller by spring but what I really need to know is what you would run with a Flat Tappet and I guess a roller too. Just in case the parts god smiles on me.
Thanks for the help everyone.

If you already have the crane cam I would consider putting 1.8 rockers on the intakes and exhaust. You may have already considered this. This would perhaps help you achieve a little more until future roller cam. On 1.8's - exh. .576, int. .554. It would give you close to the 502/465hp cam without all the duration. Just a thought....

Now there's a thought. And should be a lot cheaper then buying 2 more cams (flat then roller).
So you think the 465 cam would work or just get me by? I really want to see a change this time even if I have to bite the bullet. After I found this motor in a corn field in PA I built it pretty much stock 330 mercruiser and it was OK but..... This past spring I did the square heads and speed pro .210 domed pistons and the cam, springs, lifters and pushrods mentioned before. I am sad to say it just didn't seem worth the time, money and work to change it all out.
Nothing like when I changed out the Thunderbolt ignition with a MSD type. 200rpm's @ WOT out of the box.
So if it is between me have big smile on my face or a ho hummm look I will buy the other cam even if it turns out to be temporary.

454 with 4.25 stroke crank is 482 cu. in., .030 over bore is 489 cu.in.

The 132561 is the cam mercury uses for the 420, as well as the 400-405-425-525SC.

The 134561 is bigger, he has the 132561.

Also you could buy the correct hydraulic flat tappet stick cheaper than a set of rocker arms.

I know what your going through and can probably only imagine what's going on in your hampster cage when it hits the pillow at night. LOL... Just know only you can decide what's best as far as how far you would like to take your project. It's easy for me and others to say what to do however ultimately it's your money but don't forget it's also the smile it brings to your face when it's all said and done. All good forged internals are important to help make your new engine last. A good balancing of your internals are equally important.

However at this point it sounds like what's the biggest bang for the buck. You did right by stroker crank in my mind and I'm pretty certain everyone elses. Like the old saying goes "no replacement for displacement" Your camshaft selection as well as heads will determine just how big that smile is on your face. If it were me in your shoes depending on how much money you have at this point to stick into it is go roller cam. You'll never regret it. Your exhaust is also very important however can always be changed out easily down the road provided the cam you choose know will not cause reversion. A good proven cam grind that has been around for years and is still used by several speed shops is the Crane 731 and 741 grind. Personally I would go with the 741. More Power Racing just north of GR, MI uses it for many applications from your cubic inch on up including blower engines. I can get you their ph number if you wish to talk to Dick Esch, the owner about it and it's ongoing proven results on the dyno. Just tell him John Read said to call. Their are still many of these cams around new and used. If you can find a good used set up with hyd. roller lifters go for it. Just do a search on it. With your cubic inch your on the edge as to stay with a dual plane or a single plane intake. A dart might help you a little on top end however you may sacrifice a little down low. I went with Dart intakes however was originally going to go with the air gaps. Twins tend to help one another out a bit so I went with Darts. Again your can always find these parts used as long as you look for ones in good shape. You'll see just as much gains in after market heads as you will with a good roller set up. Again you can always change these out down the road easily. Unfortunately your at this point whatever you do from here on out is what is going to really make the difference in my opinion. So in a nutshell I would go roller and stay on a search for a good used set of heads with the right cc chambers as well as exhaust. Probably sounds easier than done however this time of year people do a lot of upgrading so be sure and keep an eye out.

I started out last winter pulling out my 454's and planned to freshen them up a bit and put some thumper sticks in them and call it good. NOT... I ended up stroking the engines with all good forged internals. Then the cam I really wanted due to the power I wanted to make I ended up having to go larger intake runners. So then I purchased a couple of sets of Pro 1's 310 cc heads and Dart intakes. Then realized the Gils wouldn't make is much power as the CMI's would for my application so I ended up getting a couple of sets of those. Now after I have everything together I have decided to go with BG Mighty Demons because they make more power than the Holley 800's I had. The **** never stops. Next is my ignition. I have the stock TB system only because it ussually works flawlessly however I know I could gain a little from that as well. That will be next.

Just know what ever improvements you will make you will not regret. OK maybe you won't be able hit the bars as frequent or spend your money elsewhere as much but it will be all worth it. Sorry to ramble however I know how you feel. I am not an expert by any means and this is just my opinion. Everyone is entitled to what they feel would be the right thing to do and you can decide what is best from this point on. At the very least it is interesting to hear some opinions.

Good luck for now.
John

If you decide to go hyd. roller this cam would work great in your motor. Teague uses these in his smaller strokers. Some day I would like to up grade to this but right now my motor is running to good to convince me to spend the money and change anything.

http://www.jegs.com/i/Crane/270/1390...ductId=756865#

That's the same basic grind as the 168731 cam. I don't recall what block you have however if it's the Mark 1V then refer to the 139011 (above) or otherwise the 139021 would be the 168741 cam. Jegs has that also.

I always here people refere to these numbers, 731, 741. Who's numbers are these, Mercury?

They are Crane numbers although I'm not sure how they came abouit. They are a couple of good grinds though.. Been around for years. Custom grinds are always a good thing as they taylor your application however Crane did well with these. More Power Racing and another individual acutally came up with the 741 grind. It was year ago but still works well. Some of the Old timers had their **** together also. Both grinds work well with several applications. Cams have alsways intrigued me, I just wish I had some of the brains these guys do who come up with them.

Thanks picklenjim and Getrdunn. I guess you all have felt my pain before.
You all probably don’t know me but I have been around a few times. I’ve spent most of my time the last few months saving the race boat ( http://www.supernova19.com/nova_24_r...nova19_com.htm ) but for the most part I have been hot rodding boats and driving people on donzi (until they imploded) and iboats nuts until I started my own site a few years ago ( www.chinewalking.com ). There is always some project going on. For that matter, the left over’s from this 454 build is going in a 1973 19’ Monza this spring also. New motors for everyone this spring.
It’s long story but it started by buying 2 motors for the race boat and ended up with a donor motor for parts that was to nice to use as parts. So then I had 3 (two Gen V’s that are going in the race boat and a 4 bolt, Mark IV). I have a 2 bolt Mark IV in a 19’ Nova now (the boat I am building the stroker for, my fav) and was having a hard time putting the left over 4 bolt in the Monza (I plan on selling it) just to let it go while keeping the 2 bolt in my boat. If it was just for resale alone I have to keep the 4 bolt but there is other reasons. So after I rebuilt the 2 Gen V’s over the last couple months I have decided to keep the 4 bolt but for it to happen it has to be ready for spring so I can pull the parts off that I want to keep off of the 2 bolt and slap them on the 4 bolt and drop it back in it’s place. But then I was thinking and drinking one night and I came to the conclusion that it was a lot of work just to say I have a 4 bolt so what would make it worth it, buying the stroker parts at 4am Christmas morning. It wasn’t a rash decision as much as it sounds. I always wanted to do it but now it’s done.
Being the race boat is not going to be finished at the earliest late summer (not like it’s an everyday driver anyway) and the Monza needs the 2 bolt out of the Nova before I can put some of the left over’s from the garage on it and get it sold. And last, I wouldn’t even think about starting spring with the Nova down. It has to be a quick turn over. If that make any sense? So I have time but there is also a limit due to this is the starting point of everything else happening.
Also lets just say I am not above experimentation but I have had this motor out of this boat and put back in so many times there will be nothing left of the original motor (454, I wouldn’t even go into the Chrysler years) except the oil pan by this spring an it may not make it either.
I have pulling a motor down to a science at this point but like all good things, it has to come to an end sometime. So a cam upgrade or exhaust later is no big deal but I think you are right that I might as well get them out of the way first. I think my heads will do for now. I would like new heads but that’s money that needs to go toward the race boat restore. I do like the air gap intake and have them on all 4 of the 454’s I have at the moment. Mid range is just as important as top end to me. If I just wanted to “go” a shot of nitrous would fix that. Not saying it’s not as important. I mean honestly no one will have respect for a boat that has a “great cruising rpm” except for the guy buying the gas and replacing the broken parts of a wild ass motor. Until a bag of money drops out of the sky for that 572ci I’ve got what I’ve got so I’m trying to make the best of it. Let’s just cross our fingers that some how I find a roller cam and lifters I can afford. I figure I can find exhaust easy enough and for that matter I think if I install taller risers on the GLM’s I could get away with a pretty big cam.
Looks like I have some research to do.

Very nice!!!

Way Cool....

Thank you.
The raceboat is turning out to be pretty simple but expensive. I'm lucky I have some good friends to help out (http://www.supernova19.com/forumcw/S...lassic/bow.gifMad Poodle).
The 19 has been a 10 year long affair. Better then any Tiger Woods affair. I can ride her hard and put her away wet. It does cost money when I want to ride her and the harder I want to ride the more it costs but if I don’t want to deal with her and everything that goes with it I can throw a tarp over her and be done with it. I bet Tiger wishes he could do that.
Oh and the wife know about mine and never has chased me down the driveway with a 5 Iron. Maybe a CC bill but not a 5 Iron. http://www.supernova19.com/forumcw/S...sic/smarty.gif

That's to funny. Never knew he was such a slut. Gotta feel bad for the Bro though.:party-smiley-048:

If you decide to go with the 1.8's, I am currently taking some off of two very low hour(130) motors. They are harland sharp and I have always used them and have never had ONE problem with there product!!!! Let me know,I'll be around $125 a set +ship. Thanks, Rob

Hey, thanks for the offer but I'm not sure what the budget is going to work out to be. I want roller so bad I can taste it but one way or another a new cam pattern is in order for the stroker.